to really regret the whole grammar school thing.

[newrecruit]

DS1 is in year 4 (DS2 in year 1).

I went to a girls grammar school and loved it. So when we moved out of London one of the reasons we chose this area was the schools. I don't think we are super selective (don't quite know what that means)

However, I was explaining the schools to him this morning as we drove past one and had an impending feeling of doom.

He's bright but can't be arsed. Resists pushing and I am against tutor on principal. I don't think he'd suit an all boys school.

What have I done! We should have just moved to a comprehensive area with a decent intake.

Some parents are already talking about tutors and its 2 years away. I want to hit them quite hard.

Please pile in and tell me to get a grip.

Free transport does exist for children in receipt of Free School Meals who have to travel for school

In my area that only applies if the child is attending the nearest suitable school and it is more than 3 miles away. If the child passed for a grammar school more than 3 miles away but there was a suitable space at a nearer school I am not sure that they would be eligible for any help with transport costs. I have also noted that the uniform list for the nearest grammar school is very expensive (more than some of the private schools). The children need 4 different types of footwear (not to mention expensive sports kit and blazers etc) and that is going to be a huge barrier for low income families especially given that the uniform grant is only £80,

Thinking about the other criteria which gives priority admission: I agree 100% that children in care should get priority places even with a slightly lower score. But I feel this should be extended to children who are young carers. Research has repeatedly shown that children who have caring responsibilities at home (for a disabled parent or sibling or parents with a serious addiction etc) are disadvantaged educationally and perform less well. These children are often the ones who miss out the most and have the most barriers to overcome (excepting children currently in care) and there should be an allowance made for them. I would much rather support a system which takes these factors into account than one which looks solely at pupil premium.

Free transport does exist for children in receipt of Free School Meals who have to travel for school and the guidelines also say they should be exempt from charges if a school bus exists. In London of course all children travel for free so it is less of an issue. This still won't overcome all barriers which is why I think the effect of the changes are going to be pretty small.

I may be wrong, but I think in my area the free school travel applies only if you go to the nearest school you could get into. If you choose to go to a grammar school miles away rather than the nearest comprehensive nearest to you, you have to pay for travel.

It may not be unlawful to let those who have been PP pupils in grammar schools with lower scores but that doesn't mean that it is a sensible thing to do. I don't think it will benefit truely disadvantaged children. I don't even think it will benefit those who do get in with lower scores as ultimately they will struggle once they get into the schools.

"It's not allowed"

No - but that maybe needs to be looked at, because our current system is hugely inefficient.

"and is then excluded from state grammar school being an example of how that too would be unfair)"

They wouldn't be excluded. Private schools would be included in the system - but it would be proportionate to the percentage of children in the area who are being educated in these establishments.

In any case - don't local councils HAVE to find a place for a child in a state school?

In any case - don't local councils HAVE to find a place for a child in a state school?

Yes they do but it can be many miles from home and involve the child travelling on lengthy bus journeys at each end of the day which might make it difficult for patents to get to work etc. some councils will provide a taxi service if the journey is over two miles (primary school) but others will just provide the cost of a child's weekly bus pass.

Thanks tiggy I hadn't realised that any grammars had actually factored in the FSM flag for allocations, as opposed to over subscription, so that's very interesting. Given the current political trend I would guess that more and more grammars will follow Birmingham, which can only be good. The more important thing in a sense is to start getting many more applications in from those who wouldn't normally apply.

whatever5 these kids all have to have passed, so the idea that their 'lower' score means they might struggle is baseless, really. They passed, so they should be just fine.

The new tests look great. Totally different and won't be available for tutors or parents to look at. These threads are full of the absolute need to tutor but that advantage really is going to be knocked on the nut in huge numbers of grammars very soon. Durham has been working on these tests for years, and are unlikely to have got it wrong.

The new tests look great. Totally different and won't be available for tutors or parents to look at.

The guardian newspaper produced an article last week which showed that these new style tests had actually increased the inequality as more children from private schools had passed these tests than the older tests.
www.theguardian.com/education/2014/sep/16/state-school-pupils-worse-tutor-proof-11-plus-tests

I think it's in large part to do with speed. From what I've heard, the new test puts a lot on how quickly and accurately you can work - with many children not completing the paper.

Whilst the sample questions might not be available in advance, I would have thought that benefits the children who have practiced exam technique more than those who haven't.

One school in our area has a language aptitude test which is very popular. It's based on a completely made up language so focuses on a child's natural ability rather than previous knowledge.

lltf.net/aptitude-tests/language-aptitude-tests/mlat-elementary/

I suppose that is what the non-verbal reasoning was supposed to do to but didn't quite work.

OP
Just move to an area that has comprehensive schools and then you do not have to worry about it.

My DD is at the above-mentioned Peter Symonds.
We do not could not in a million years afford to live in Winchester, but the bus to the college is OK.
The secondary school she went to and her brother is at is a comp with a 10 mile wide catchment. Its pretty leafy but not all.
I'm happy and had almost zero stress getting them in and have never ever paid for any sort of academic tutoring.

whatever5 these kids all have to have passed, so the idea that their 'lower' score means they might struggle is baseless, really. They passed, so they should be just fine.

There often isn't a pass mark (or there hasn't been in the past). In Birmingham for example, the places are just allocated (or have been) according to who has the highest score with no catchment area. Now in some areas e.g. Birmingham those on PP only have to achieve a certain mark to get in. This mark may be quite a bit lower than the lowest entry grade among other pupils so potentially those on PP may be less academic and they may struggle as a result.

No the schools are quite clear that these pupils need to achieve an 'eligible score'. I think your worries are unfounded. I would be more concerned about the heavily tutored kid scenario tbh.

The new CEM tests are specifically not about speed.

No the schools are quite clear that these pupils need to achieve an 'eligible score'. I think your worries are unfounded.

I'm not sure what you mean. If the "eligible" score for PP pupils is lower than the lowest entrance score for other pupils this means that PP pupils may not necessarily be as academic than the the other children.
For example, at King Edward VI Camp Hill School for Boys, PP pupils will get in with a score of 215 this year. The lowest score for other boys is likely to be 235 (going on last years scores) so there is quite a difference. The PP pupils have also received free tutoring.

I do not have a problem with the grammar system.
However, I do have a problem with parents who are so obsessed with their children passing the 11+ that they fail to realise that their children may not be suited to grammar school as they may not be able to cope with the academic pressures.
My elder dd passed the 11+ and myself and dh were elated.
We attended many open days for the different grammar schools and comprehensive schools.
However, my dd loved the faith based comprehensive and I realised that it was about doing the right thing for dd1.
She is extremely able , but myself and dh felt that the competitive nature of the grammar would not be beneficial to her.
She is now at the comprehensive and is doing really well.
Dd2 has also sat the 11+ and is likely to pass. If she passes, she will attend the grammar, because she is very competitive and WANTS to go to the grammar.
Parents must remember that it is about the child.
BTW, I tutored my dds for the 11+ as I am relatively well educated.
They also had a tutor who they saw them for one hour each week ,for six months. I am fortunate in that I could afford tuition. However , I believe that as others have said; it is the parents attitude to education which determines the child's future.
This explains why the children of ambitious immigrants are very successful. They are prepared to spend what little money they have on improving the education of their children.

whatever5 an eligible score is one where the student is deemed to be well able to deal with the standard required at the school in question. And however well meaning, the 'free tutoring' provided to FSM children is far, far more limited than the ridiculous levels of tutoring so often discussed on MN. Hopefully the combination of the new CEM tests and the prioritization of FSM children together with a push at the primary level to encourage non traditional applicants to apply will soon start to pay dividends. That's certainly the direction of travel.

Moli- in the past parents have been told by grammar schools that "past experience demonstrates" that children with a score lower than the previous years lowest entry score may struggle to cope. That has also been the experience of my children's friends who scraped in. If this has been the case, it does not seem like a good idea to let children in with much lower entry scores.
I don't disagree free tutoring for FSM children to level the playing field but you are wrong if you think it is far far more limited than the tutoring the majority of other children receive. The majority of children who go to grammar schools have not been intensively tutored in my experience. Mine spent one hour a week practicing papers as did most of their friends.

whatever5 an eligible score is an eligible score. Any kid with an eligible score should be fine.

Do you also disagree with contextual data being used for uni entry?

This all sounds a little protectionist, not paternalist - is that right?

What is a secondary modern? I went to a secondary school back in the late 80'/ early 90's and it was just called a secondary school. What is the 'modern' part about?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secondary_modern_school