to really regret the whole grammar school thing.

[newrecruit]

DS1 is in year 4 (DS2 in year 1).

I went to a girls grammar school and loved it. So when we moved out of London one of the reasons we chose this area was the schools. I don't think we are super selective (don't quite know what that means)

However, I was explaining the schools to him this morning as we drove past one and had an impending feeling of doom.

He's bright but can't be arsed. Resists pushing and I am against tutor on principal. I don't think he'd suit an all boys school.

What have I done! We should have just moved to a comprehensive area with a decent intake.

Some parents are already talking about tutors and its 2 years away. I want to hit them quite hard.

Please pile in and tell me to get a grip.

Word

Lots of people don't like drawing attention to themselves. In fact I'd say this is true of most people.

They still manage to work well in groups.

Collaborative working requires a student to express their ideas, to listen and to respond thoughtfully to others. Is your son not able to do this?

Agree that there are many highly intelligent people who are introverts. Being introverted is not a flaw that needs fixing.

"If they are not doing well its not because a teeny tiny fraction of DC are going elsewhere.

Its because the school is failing them"

High achieving children who are well supported DO do well in a decent comprehensive. But they'd do better if they were able to work collaboratively with the super-bright and massively tutored cohort who are currently being hived off into selective schools.

Would also want to remind you that schools are communities.

Communities which have access to the brains, the drive and the input of the most innovative, powerful, well-connected people will benefit from their input. At the moment non-selective state schools are being deprived of the parental as well as the student input from the most powerful and influential individuals in the country, because these people choose to educate their children in socially, economically and intellectually exclusive settings.

Honestly - we can see that having input from those with talent, money and power matters in companies and in communities. Why are schools considered immune to this?

beyondrepair
In Kent : which is the most extreme selective county the "top" 30% of kids are segregated off.
Combine that with poor areas and you have schools with over 20% statements / School Action plus
or over 30% FSM
its pretty hard to get good raw results with that sort of an intake ...

"
But this is not the case, plenty of children with high ability will be at comps and secondary and all the bog standard school.

If they are not doing well its not because a teeny tiny fraction of DC are going elsewhere. "

The point is that in wholly grammar areas it is NOT a tiny proportion. It is 20+ %.

Wheer I livem, it genuinely is a teeny tiny fraction, which is one reason teh comps are fab [and can really be called comps, as the balance of abilities is relatively unaffected by the grammars]. In Kent, that is different.

Nobody is saying that being introverted is a flaw.

Being introverted doesn't stop you from working collaboratively with other students or being an asset to a school or a class.

minifingers

I am sure word's son can communicate in groups.

do not what?

prepare them for grammar?

I am amazed that there are areas where 7a*s is a once in a blue moon thing at all the comprehensives! We manage a couple a year at the secondary modern!

Where I live the grammars only take a tiny proportion of children (less than 5%), but private schools skim off another 15%, and church schools (which in our area select a disproportionate number of very high achieving students) another fairly significant proportion.

But they'd do better if they were able to work collaboratively with the super-bright and massively tutored cohort who are currently being hived off into selective schools .

I disagree.

You seem to think every child is the sum of the paper.

Many children left behind, will be just as bright but not reaching that potential on paper or as previously said just never entered for the 11+.

Because in a class of 25 high achieving children in a top set in a comprehensive, having two or three very, very high flying children raises the achievement and the pace of learning for the rest - mixed ability teaching in circumstances like this, when it is done well, is better for the majority.

Research does indeed show that, but it also shows that the most able children suffer academically in mixed ability environments whilst the others are benefiting from their ability.
Why should anybody accept that their own child will be hindered for the sake of the majority? Sadly, I am more concerned with ensuring that my own children reach their potential then I am about 29 other children who I didn't give birth to and don't really know reaching their potential. I am aware of how selfish that sounds but I just cannot bring myself to believe that I should sacrifice my own child's potential for the sake of others.
I have a child who we are currently trying to decide on high school choices for. I am not certain whether we will go selective or opt for the local catchment comprehensive school as both schools have advantages and disadvantages and the comprehensive has setting in place from year 7. My decision will ultimately be based in what I feel is best for my child rather than what will benefit anybody else's child or even the majority of children.

beyondrepair
you said
maybe its time for state schools to start looking up and not down and supporting bright children
to which I replied - what makes you think they do not?

because lots of state schools do really well with bright children - often without segregating them from those who are not academic or religious or rich

Combine that with poor areas and you have schools with over 20% statements / School Action plus

what was lambeths statshardly inspiring i would imagine but with a great attitude and a brilliant head they are in top 5% of schools, or were.

*beyondrepair
you said
maybe its time for state schools to start looking up and not down and supporting bright children
to which I replied - what makes you think they do not?

because lots of state schools do really well with bright children - often without segregating them from those who are not academic or religious or rich

Of course talkin so whats the problem with grammars then?

state schools are managing fine.

esearch does indeed show that, but it also shows that the most able children suffer academically in mixed ability environments whilst the others are benefiting from their ability

Yes but research has shown its all negligible .

Lambeth has Comps.
www.education.gov.uk/cgi-bin/schools/performance/group.pl?qtype=LA&superview=sec&view=cqs&set=2&sort=ks4_13.ptac5em&ord=desc&tab=35&no=208&pg=1

"esearch does indeed show that, but it also shows that the most able children suffer academically in mixed ability environments whilst the others are benefiting from their ability

Yes but research has shown its all negligible ."

And I take it you feel that when it comes to making decisions about how we should structure educational provision for UK children, the needs of the most able children who also, not entirely coincidentally, tend to be richest and best supported should take precedent over the needs of the rest, even though these are the children who already thrive in any half way decent state school?

I think educational research has had a checkered history. There can be a lot of conflicting factors and spurious variables. That's just how social science is. So, I think it is fair for parents and teachers to form opinions based on personal experience and logical deduction.

That means that opinion will vary based on vantage point and personal interests. And, as of yet, there hasn't been a gold standard, copper bottomed study to settle all these issues.

I am interested on hearing about the latest research, but I don't feel like any of it is a silver bullet for winning these debates.

Yes but research has shown its all negligible .

Does that mean I can go ahead and choose whichever school suits my child best without feeling guilty that I am doing a disservice to another child if I opt for a selective school?
Although my children probably classify as disadvantaged and less likely to succeed based on the criteria that is known to have a significant impact on educational attainment anyway.

Just see how it goes and see if he gets in then or move him to a fee paying school where he might be forced to make more of an effort than coasting at primary level.

(Most schools would like a mixture of introverts and loud mouths in their classes. I am sure very selective schools try to get a mixture. If you have all noisy ones it's not good. If you have a class of children who never speak that must be dull for the teacher too. One of my children's teacher said a few years back my son may well be good but as he'd never spoken (he is quiet in class) he might as well have been attending my correspondence course.)

"Why should anybody accept that their own child will be hindered for the sake of the majority? Sadly, I am more concerned with ensuring that my own children reach their potential"

And who has the power, the wherewithal and the drive to push their children to the front of the queue? The middle-classes. And thus go on to perpetuate the inequality of opportunity that is damaging our country - not just for the poor, but for EVERYONE. And that's despite the fact that well supported children from m/c backgrounds STILL do better than their peers, even when they're state educated.....

But I am not middle class. I am working class, always have been (although some might say I was part of the underclass as a child).

mini he collaborates far better in a like-ability situation. Less so when he's the outlier, as that would per force, draw attention to himself.

At 15 this self consciousness is probably at its nadir...

talkin I recognise of course how absurdly fortunate I am, my children are.

Our choices are wide. Most people's are not.

That's one of the reasons I'd like to see more SS schools. I'd like DC with less money than us to be able to access what we can.