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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to really regret the whole grammar school thing.

999 replies

newrecruit · 20/09/2014 11:16

DS1 is in year 4 (DS2 in year 1).

I went to a girls grammar school and loved it. So when we moved out of London one of the reasons we chose this area was the schools. I don't think we are super selective (don't quite know what that means)

However, I was explaining the schools to him this morning as we drove past one and had an impending feeling of doom.

He's bright but can't be arsed. Resists pushing and I am against tutor on principal. I don't think he'd suit an all boys school.

What have I done! We should have just moved to a comprehensive area with a decent intake.

Some parents are already talking about tutors and its 2 years away. I want to hit them quite hard.

Please pile in and tell me to get a grip.

OP posts:
LePetitMarseillais · 23/09/2014 20:21

Yes it does.Grin
Music facilities are fab too.

LePetitMarseillais · 23/09/2014 20:22

The fact is the alternatives are great and there is something for everybody which I'm very glad about(having been funnelled into a mediocre at everything comp myself).

Philoslothy · 23/09/2014 20:33

My eldest son ended up at a grammar, partly due to his special needs he is extremely gifted at Maths and to a lesser extent Science. He is just above average in English.

His needs would have been much better served by a comprehensive. In fact his old teachers at the local comp/ secondary modern spent the last few months of his GCSEs supporting him in English.

TalkinPeace · 23/09/2014 20:42

LePetit
I therefore have to assume that you live in or near a city large enough to support so many state schools within an affordable distance
and that the parents using these state schools are rich enough to drive them to other than their catchment school.

That is not the case for the vast bulk of the country.

Take the city of Salisbury for example
Girls Grammar
Boys Grammar
Girls Sec Mod
Boys Sec Mod
Girls Catholic
Boys Catholic
not a lot of actual choice for any one child

LePetitMarseillais · 23/09/2014 20:44

But not all grammars are the same.

There are plenty of dire comp areas too if you look.

TalkinPeace · 23/09/2014 20:46

Indeed, but Grammar schools - dividing resources in an arbitrary manner - are not the solution.

LePetitMarseillais · 23/09/2014 20:49

They don't claim to be.

teacherwith2kids · 23/09/2014 20:51

Philo,

Exactly. One of the fabulous things about comprehensive education is that my DS can be top set in Maths, top set PE, bounce between top and 2nd English sets depending on progress but be bottom set Art and Food Tech. Equally his best mate is top of the top set in Maths, bottom set PE and middle for most other subjects.

I know of a child at a localish superselective grammar who has just failed Maths GCSE (got a D) for the 2nd year running. She has been told she is 'unteachable in this environment' and thus has had to leave at the end of Y12 and restart A-levels, simply because they don't have the flexibility to cater for someone who may be exceptionally good at most subjects but be less able in one in particular. Bizarre (she's gone to the 'other' good comp in the town, and I have no doubt wll emerge not only with a pass in GCSE Maths, but also exceoptionally good Arts subject A-levels.)

Philoslothy · 23/09/2014 20:53

Not all grammars are the same but they are not set up to support average or even just above average students, meaning that my son who was top of his year group for many of his subjects was left to potentially fail on one of his core subjects.

In a comprehensive he would have been supported in his weaker subject.

teacherwith2kids · 23/09/2014 20:55

Absolutely. One of the reasons why I suspect this child will pass her GCSE Maths from the comp now she has transferred there is because she will be one of thousands who 'don't find maths easy' who they have successfully taught to get a pass grade. In the grammar, despite her being exceptionally gifted in other academic areas, they simply couldn't teach a child 'so behind' their norm.

Hakluyt · 23/09/2014 21:35

I thought it was generally thought that the new "tutor proof" test was a bit of a failure in it's attempt to be more inclusive-am I wrong about that?

Hakluyt · 23/09/2014 21:40

And I really, really don't understand the reasoning behind to sets being in a different building. Why??????????

Molio · 23/09/2014 22:01

Talkin I'm not against comps at all, though I find the results a bit grey. However I am in favour of grammars and also in favour of alternative schools which don't attempt to squeeze all children without aptitude through the same regime, provided those schools come up with equally good, if different, provision.

Hakluyt I know it's mean to hark on about the discrepancy between your professed preferences and the fact that your own kids took the test. But it does dent your credibility somewhat. Especially given the angst re the appeal. Sorry, but true. Principles count.

LaQueenOnHerHolibobs · 23/09/2014 22:10

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

TalkinPeace · 23/09/2014 22:14

Molio

What would you add to the mix in a city like Salisbury?

Remembering that there are no other state schools near there ....

None of the schools have the critical mass to provide Arts, Music, Drama, Sport, MFL on the scale that a comp can
Its a localised area so Grammar 1/3 sec mod is 1/3 Catholic is 1/3 of the kids
www.education.gov.uk/cgi-bin/schools/performance/group.pl?qtype=GR&f=r0_3btMfqm&superview=sec&view=aat&set=10&sort=l.schname&ord=asc&tab=88&no=998&pg=1

Having read the funding formula for schools, I cannot see that dividing the kids up like that is getting better results for any of them.

Oh and I'd like Molio's views on this table
www.education.gov.uk/cgi-bin/schools/performance/group.pl?qtype=GR&f=r0_3btMfqm&superview=sec&view=aat&set=5&tab=71&no=998&sort=ks4_13.ptfsmcla&ord=desc
Wink

MrsMcRuff · 23/09/2014 22:40

What would you add to the mix in a city like Salisbury?
Remembering that there are no other state schools near there ....

The net result of the situation in Salisbury, is that because of the relatively poor reputation/academic performance of two in particular of the 'secondary mods', and the Catholic school (co-ed), a significant number of children who don't pass/take the 11+ opt for (mainly two) comprehensive schools outside the area, if they can get a place. One is, in fact, out of county.

Hakluyt · 23/09/2014 23:25

"Hakluyt I know it's mean to hark on about the discrepancy between your professed preferences and the fact that your own kids took the test. But it does dent your credibility somewhat. Especially given the angst re the appeal. Sorry, but true. Principles count.

Sigh. For the 700th time. Yes. My children took the test. One passed. One failed. They are both about on a par IQwise- the one that failed being, on paper, the brighter. The point is that if you live in an exclusively selective area you have no choice. You can't say "well, I'll ignore the test and send mine to the comprehensive because there is no comprehensive to send them to. And yes, I did appeal. Because there was no correlation between my ds's CAT score and his 11+ mark. No angst. Test. Fail. Appeal. Fail. So secondary modern. Where he is doing fine. Better than I expected, frankly. If myou live in a wholly selective area, there is no way of opting out except private, which we would not consider. And HE. Which I would not consider for our family. So no problem with principles.

Molio · 23/09/2014 23:36

But surely you could have ignored the test and sent them both to the high school? If I felt a strongly as you I think that's what I would have done. But then I do have sympathy, as I don't feel strongly against grammars. I just have some difficulty with the fact that you took the test at the outset. And then get so cross about grammars.

MrsMcRuff · 24/09/2014 00:10

There's no anomaly in objecting to a selective system of education, yet entering your dc for the 11+.

If you think they have a chance of passing the exam to go to an academically brilliant school, you are not likely to forgo that on a matter of principle, and opt instead for an inferior education, are you? Unless you don't actually have their best interests at heart, that is.

frogsinapond · 24/09/2014 00:20

The thing is Hak, that some true comprehensives have a similar input to some Kent secondary moderns. Look at the similar schools group to this comprehensive for example here.

If this was your local school there is no option of a test or appeal to a grammar, you'd just have to send your child there. It has similar intake characteristics to several Kent secondary moderns and performs worse than some of them.

frogsinapond · 24/09/2014 00:47

I have no problem at all with your dc sitting the test and appealing etc, it was the right thing to do (as parents we need to fight for our dc), and I have a certain amount of respect that you didn't ditch your principles entirely and educate him privately. The only issue is your failure to acknowledge that comprehensives don't work everywhere.

Hakluyt · 24/09/2014 06:41

"The only issue is your failure to acknowledge that comprehensives don't work everywhere."

Happy to acknowledge that! There are crap schools in all sectors. There is even currently a grammar school on notice to improve.

Surely this debate isn't about individual schools- it's about systems.

Hakluyt · 24/09/2014 06:46

"But surely you could have ignored the test and sent them both to the high school? If I felt a strongly as you I think that's what I would have done. "

Why? You're participating in the selective system whichever school you send your children to. And if we were in a comprehensive area I would want my top set children to be in the top set. And I would do everything I could to make sure they were.

Molio · 24/09/2014 08:31

Hakluyt I think proper principles would lead me personally to not actively join in the system by taking the test. To justify it on the basis that one wants to do the best for one's kids is ducking out into pragmatism; that isn't principled. Anyhow, it's very minor, but it is rather weak of those strongly opposed to grammars to dismiss what they're doing in terms of access and outreach. That's just unthinking prejudice. Remember too that a lot of schools adopting the new tests and moving towards the prioritization of FSM children are super selectives, so cause only a small ripple in terms of unbalancing community schools.

Talkin I've clicked on your link but it just shows a blank DfE table Confused. But I'm not inclined to do homework on MN anyhow tbh, I'd rather get on with the day job :)

Hakluyt · 24/09/2014 08:36

"Anyhow, it's very minor, but it is rather weak of those strongly opposed to grammars to dismiss what they're doing in terms of access and outreach"

I'm not dismissing it. I just have no evidence that it's actually having any effect. If it does, I will be delighted. My understanding though is that the new "tutor proof" test is anything but. And anyway, the reasons disadvantaged children don't get into grammar schools are far deeper than a simple inability to pass the 11+.

But I still don't understand why anyone thinks "top set" children need to be educated in a separate building. It just baffles me.