To tell you all what Alan Titchmarch thinks of 12-15 year old girls who dress 'inappropriately'

[RiffyWammal]

I'm so angry. On his show today in a discussion about sexual harassment and sexism he said something really vile. I will transcribe what he said exactly;

"A lot of 12, 13, 14, 15 year old girls are now walking down the street barely covered. I see crop tops on girls of 12 and skirts up here, in a way now I hate to say that thing which men say 'they are asking for it' but it strikes me that if a girl of 14 walks past a building site in a crop top and short skirt she's probably going to get whistled at and worse."

I'm disgusted as was Laura Bates from Everyday Sexism who stayed remarkably controlled as she countered this. The victim blaming, the implication that girls should jolly well cover up if they don't want to be harrassed, the attitude of 'how else do we expect men to react if they see a girl's legs and belly'? I could hardly believe my ears. The audience applauded him FFS

I think I am going to make a complaint to ITV. I just wanted to bring it to the attention of anyone else who might wish to do the same.

Ah, disingenious.

Seriously though, what are they? I don't get the concept. Possibly because I don't come across many hookers in my everyday life.

Did Billie Piper wear any in that show?

But where do you draw the line, hotfuzzra? How many clothes do you discard as "inappropriate", when it has been proven over and over again that what a woman was wearing has NOTHING to do with whether or not she is raped? And what happens when the girls who have been taught not to get stupid drunk, not to walk down the dark alleyway alone and not to wear the short skirt and high heels have the misfortune to encounter a rapist anyway?

I think my priority is to teach my sons about respecting women and not to be rapey rapists.

I don't see it as victim blaming, I see it as taking measures to minimise the risks of a potential outcome

It doesn't curtail the risks, it just puts limitations on ordinary behaviour, such as socialising with friends whilst wearing clothes, that we should be able to take for granted. It's the 'make sure he rapes the other girl' argument. It makes girls/women feel complicit in crimes that are committed by other people and which they can do nothing to prevent. A skirt is not consent.

Alan Titmarch made some pretty hideous comments about how older women shouldn't moan about their lack of presence on tv, as they were all had their time as beautiful young things. The man's a twat.
It's been the same for generations, teenagers wearing revealing clothes, and actually the fashion at the moment seems quite tame, high wasted shorts and crop tops.
The clothes have nothing to do with being cat called, it's just what bellends do and it should stop, as it's at worst damaging and at best tedious.

Sorry sign I didn't mean to conflate the issues. I was trying to talk about behaviour as one issue and clothing/catcalling as another.
Obviously anyone who has been raped is not at fault, the offender is always to blame, I'm just talking about taking precautions to avoid something.
With clothes/catcalling, am I naive to think that if I'm wearing jeans and a rugby shirt and my usual Bitch Resting Face then I'm less likely to be cat called than if I was wearing a bikini top and skimpy shorts?
Again, I'm not trying to say women shouldn't do or wear what they like, I'm just asking if it's old fashioned to think that I'm responsible for minimising any risk of any unwanted attention.
Obviously I can't stop a twat being a twat.

Yes I think you are naive to think that hotfuzza.

The main thing that I found personally attracted inappropriate attention was being young.

School uniforms have always been popular with the type of man who does this.

He is a twat.
As an aside, the most male comments/wolfwhistles/beeping of horns I have ever got was when I was breastfeeding DS1 and walking him around the village we lived in. It was awful. I am big busted anyway, but when breastfeeding I was very big and very high and "inyourface", no matter what I wore. It completely ruined my Madonna moment. In all honesty it was one reason I stopped breastfeeding.
No one needs to be made to feel like that.

Whiskwarrior

I know what my reason is I was wondering what hers was. Nothing wrong in that.

YY it can be anything

Big breasts
Small breasts
Tall
Short
Blonde hair
Red hair
Unusual handbag
etc
I could go on

The sort of man who does this will be able to find something to "pick on" with any woman or girl he decides to yell at.

God, yes, whiskey, exactly that!

He should stick to gardening. In the Triffid shed.

I totally agree!

I remember watching his first ever non-gardening show and I found him yuckily suggestive then.

To say that 12yr olds who dress up deserve to be catcalled is just beyond the pale but I wouldn't expect much different from him sadly.

What you wear has nothing to do with rape, or sexual assault and precious little to do with whether tossers whistle at you or shout at you in the street. Yes you'd be ill advised to walk past a building site in a bikini but I remember being whistled at walking past a pub in my girl guides uniform. Must have been all of 13 .

Wearing a short skirt does not mean its OK for men to grope you or make comments. Having said which I think its pretty grim how many young girls appear to have taken sex workers as their guide as to what looks good. And I don't want to see your arse, genitals or underwear regardless of your age, physique or gender thank you so much.

Flossy

Eh? I wasn't addressing you. I think maybe you mean someone else.

I posted earlier details of two out of the numerous experiences of verbal sexual harassment I've had while dressed conservatively.

I've been reading the thread further and still people are focusing on what women should wear or do to "be safe" ( clothes , drinking, not walking alone after dark etc)

I was attacked by a man when I was 14. It was 8:30 in the morning, in the middle of a residential street and I was wearing my school uniform which at the time consisted of a blue jumper and blue trousers. I was wearing flat court shoes. No make up as it wasn't allowed at school. I was not drunk ( I was I the way to school! ) and it was sunny and bright that day.

He jumped out at me from behind a garden wall and pushed me to the floor while grabbing me between the legs.

I fought him off using my massive history text book but I was physically unable to scream even though I was terrified. He only stopped when he heard my neighbours footsteps coming along the road ( she saved me because of the noise of the skyscraper heels she was wearing to work that day - how ironic!)

We are at risk from perverts and rapists and stupid men who think they are so funny whatever we are wearing whatever the time of day and regardless of how mush alcohol we have or haven't consumed.

I've been leched at from cars, whistled and cat called twice in the past week. I am 54, of average appearance and build and each time I was wearing a black top and dark jeans, literally covered from head to toe.

I think the problem is men. In fact sometimes very near-naked confident young girls confuse and intimidate them (which is pretty funny to watch).

Is that not a variation of the 'let girls be girls' sensibility? From what you posted, it doesn't sound like he was blaming them.....

Ffs JumpRope, read the full thread. It's moved on a bit...

Oh gosh so sorry Whiskey my copy & paste went a bit wonky! it was the post below yours PistolWhipped

Angels I'm sorry about your experience, and I apologise that what I said may have sounded blamey.
I honestly do not believe what happens to victims of assault/rape to be their fault in any way.
As many people experience, rapists and perverts will do what they do regardless of day, time, age, sobriety etc. They are violent offenders and I'm not trying to minimise that.
I was (badly worded) trying to express a thought, really with regards to clothing and catcalling, that I can do something to minimise the risk.
I accept that it may be naive and unreasonable, but that was just a thinking-out-loud kind of thing.

I had an argument with a man from Northern Pakistan.

He said that women should basically wear 'purdah' (ie. burkhas) to protect themselves from men.

I suggested that instead of women wearing burkhas to protect themselves from men - his fellow men should be able to control themselves around women wearing all kinds of clothes.

He is an intelligent guy so he saw my point of view and I won the argument. He then went to college in Tajikistan where he met women in western clothes for the first time and he became a bit of a feminist actually!

Alan Titchmarsh and his TV audience are not from Northern Pakistan and unlike my friend have not been brought up with every woman they know wearing full 'purdah'. So they should be more enlightened than my friend used to be... but they aren't. AT's attitudes no different than men who think women should be in burkhas.

I'm just talking about taking precautions to avoid something

But the 'precautions' you can take, or teach your daughters to take, won't necessarily result in you or them avoiding rape, and may simply create a false sense of security: "I don't wear provocative clothes, get drunk or walk down dark streets alone, therefore I won't get raped". Or to put it another way: "I don't behave like a bad girl so I won't get raped." "I don't dress or behave like I'm 'available' so I won't get raped". "I don't 'ask for it' so I won't get raped".

There's not much between the nuances of meaning, is there...?

What determines whether or not a woman gets raped is whether or not she meets a rapist, not how she dresses or behaves or where she goes.

No need to apologise. It's a really common attitude and if I'm honest I am more careful to take care when it's dark or if I've had a drink ( even though my experience tells me it will not make any difference)