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Indyref 12 - keeping the ball rolling

999 replies

flippinada · 15/09/2014 20:38

Hope everyone doesn't mind, I'm to keep the discussion going. As you were folks :)

OP posts:
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14
TroelsNextCampaignManager · 16/09/2014 14:06

Is this what democracy looks like? Report in the Telegraph re pressure on businesses not to voice support for the Union:

Sir Peter Housden, the permanent secretary of the Scottish government, contacted organisations that were seen to favour the Union and told them to “keep out” of the debate.

One person, who received a telephone call from the civil servant, said Sir Peter warned that it was “inappropriate” to get involved. A second person said Sir Peter had “torn strips” off him after he raised questions about independence.

One of the business figures who spoke to this newspaper about the intimidation said they also received a telephone call from John Swinney, the finance and public services minister, who requested that they distance themselves from discussions.

The second executive compared the mandarin’s actions to behaviour of the “school bully”.
He said he felt it was “inappropriate” for the civil servant to contact organisations to “rebuke” them for their concerns about independence.

Several people have claimed to have received intimidating phone calls or behaviour from the SNP or the “Yes” campaign.

One businessman, who spoke on condition of anonymity, said he had felt pressurised on two occasions.

After hosting a small unionist lunch at the start of the year, he was contacted by Mr Pyle, who asked if he would organise a similar event for them.
The businessman added: “About two or three days later, I got a note saying, 'would you like to come to a dinner Mr Salmond is holding and perhaps you might bring two or three of the people that were with you the other night?’
“He said, 'We know you were at the dinner’ and I thought that was a bit odd. It felt like Big Brother.”

Another businessman said that he felt “intimidated” by the SNP after attending an event in 2012 where he had been involved in a “very factual discussion” about Scotland’s trading opportunities.

Some companies have felt intimidated by SNP councillors. One businessman, who is based in north-east Scotland, said a local SNP councillor warned him “I hope you will be voting the right way”, as they discussed a potential building project earlier this year.

The alleged tactics have not worked on everyone. Charles Ritchie, who runs Score Plc, which provides engineering services to oil, gas and nuclear firms, has openly supported the “No” campaign despite receiving threats.

In the past two months, his company has received two devices in the post that were made to look like bombs and one live bullet in a box of matches.

OOAOML · 16/09/2014 14:08

Chelsy without going into detail about where he works, no I don't think he does think it will mean enhanced opportunities. And he knows that my job is likely to move (and that I will want to move with it). He just thinks Scotland will be fairer, although he has never defined how.

He is being brilliant, says he respects me for standing up for my beliefs, and looks after the children whilst I go out campaigning. But we are worlds apart on this, and I wish we didn't talk about it because we only argue. It tears me apart inside. But I have to campaign for what I believe in, and if the vote is Yes and my job moves, I see no reason not to move with it. I don't know if he will.

Only a few days!

sconequeen · 16/09/2014 14:09

There has been a lot of good debate on this thread. I've always tried to be respectful to other posters. Over the past couple of weeks, however, I've been called stupid, xenophobic, racist and a Nazi. I've never reported a post before but I think the line has to be drawn somewhere because these kinds of comments can derail the democratic debate.

Any time a Yes supporter raises her head above the parapet on these threads, it hasn't taken long for the personal insults to start flying from the No side. I'm personally looking forward to an independent Scotland with a new style of politics.

LLLL I would like to know how they are managing to prioritise the 'nationalist' viewpoint over the economic one. I'm not prioritising a nationalist viewpoint. I have already described in quite a bit of detail how I see independence as an opportunity for greater social justice and a new approach to achieving a prosperous Scotland. The reasons have been set out by me and many others - you don't agree with them which is fair enough, but they are there.

Phaedra - you are entitled to your opinions about AS. But this referendum is not about him.

Anyway, off now to where I suspect most of the other Yes posters on this thread are ie out on the campaign trail where we are finding increasing interest and support.

Fontella · 16/09/2014 14:09

I think talking in terms of intelligence/unintelligence in terms of voters is perhaps the wrong terminology.

It's not a question of intelligence but rather of knowledge - of being informed/uninformed. Of having a clear grasping and understanding of economic principles and international law.

SconeQueen is clearly a very 'intelligent' individual but the lack of knowledge and naivity contained in some of her posts in the previous threads when we were discussing issues like currency union, the EU, comparisons with Switzerland (!) and so on.

She spoke of Scotland being able to 'decide' whether it wanted to join a CU or not, of the joys of being able to 'negotiate' directly with Brussels over the EU funding that would be coming Scotland's way and not have to go via Westminster ... at the same time proudly claiming that 'Scotland Would Be One Of The Richest Countries in the World', as we have heard Mr Salmond and Ms Sturgeon tell us so many times, quoted verbatim in her posts.

It's that degree of 'ignorance' amongst the 'Yes' campaign that is at issue. We see it here, we see it elsewhere ... anyone in any doubt of that should read the Guardian article relating to CU that I linked to earlier.

I stayed up until 4am reading the comments section. I couldn't drag myself away from it such was the jaw dropping 'ignorance' amongst the Yessers on there. Not a single one was able to form a sound argument of any kind. It was all the same rhetorical nonsense that is repeated ad infinitum by Salmond and his supporters. All of the informed, economically sound, factual debate was coming the other way. And we aren't talking 'Tory Toffs' here. We are talking polite, considered, liberal .. Guardian readers, doing their very best to try and explain the flaws in Salmond's plans for independence, many of them eventually losing patience in the process.

ChelsyHandy · 16/09/2014 14:10

The SNP controls which companies get awarded the increasingly used ppi contracts. This is how things will work in an independent Scotland.

I wouldn't be surprised if we weren't allowed to have conversations like this online in an independent Scotland. I really think it would be a bit like in Orwell's 1984, with people informing on you for having a non-conformist opinion, and as a result, not being selected for jobs, etc..

edamsavestheday · 16/09/2014 14:11

Apparently Spain's Europe Minister, Inigo Mendez de Vigo, has warned Scotland won't be part of the EU for five years. Said Alex Salmon's claims have 'more ifs than a poem by Rudyard Kipling'. And repeated that of course Scotland would have to use the Euro.

If the Scottish do vote to go their own way, I wish them well, but it will be fascinating to see how it all plays out. Given Salmond's dubious debating tactics I expect there will be lots of distraction and denial of the political and economic claims they are making now.

TroelsNextCampaignManager · 16/09/2014 14:13

Chelsy it's already gone that way (1984) - see the Telegraph extract above about a businessman being collared about being at a dinner that the other person had no reason to be aware of...

LatteLoverLovesLattes · 16/09/2014 14:13

OOAOML I really feel for you :( Will you have to move far? Would he stop you taking the children? I can't believe he wont talk to you about 'what if' :( I'm sorry it's going to be such a tough time ahead for you either way x

OOAOML · 16/09/2014 14:15

Good luck scone. I'm out on the trail again myself after work, and full time tomorrow and Thursday. We're getting good responses as well. Will be interesting to see how the various areas vote.

I think these threads have had antagonism from both sides, and we've also had some good times where we've got on despite our differences. Tempers are obviously a bit shorter just now, so some of us being off-thread is probably a good thing.

AnnieHoo · 16/09/2014 14:15

OOAMOL i really feel for you Sad. I hope you can work it out.

chocoluvva · 16/09/2014 14:16

I'm a no voter. I think the problem is that so many people feel yes or no; either way they're screwed, there's no party in WM that gives them hope so they might as well have a fresh start without trident and the undemocratic house of lords.

It's a pity the lib-dems agreed to the coalition IMO. Perhaps if they hadn't some of the yessers might have seen them as a credible alternative to labour and the conservatives.

OneNight · 16/09/2014 14:17

sconequeen

I'm personally looking forward to an independent Scotland with a new style of politics.

I fear you would be sadly disappointed. The separatist campaign are led by pretty standard central belt politicians who would be operating with little or no money in a climate of appalling financial and social instability. It would be Same Old Same Old with added problems.

Thank Goodness for a solid No vote.

livingzuid · 16/09/2014 14:17

Hello posters gosh so much to catch up on. I am off south of the border for a rest from all of this for a couple of days. It's such a relief to be gone. Everyone at work fed up and wants it over, and DH thinks Yes peaked a bit too early. The division the push for a referendum has created is giving many a pause for thought. Look forward to reading the posts on the train.

Funnily enough on the subject of fascism two colleagues compared a Yes van driving round blaring rather strange music to the precursor of scenes such as the Nuremberg rallies. As I have said previously, I don't doubt that the vast majority of Yes voters are nowhere near this but I'm afraid that is all I can think of when I think of their campaign.

OOAOML · 16/09/2014 14:18

Latte quite possibly a long way. I don't know about the children, he did at one point say "well if you walk out on us" Sad. Not sure I can cope with the children on my own, especially my ASD son who is very volatile at the moment. But as the main earner in the family, I don't know that I can just let my job go and stay here.

LatteLoverLovesLattes · 16/09/2014 14:20

Fontella great post.

Chelsy I fear it's already gone that way.

Edam 'more ifs than a poem by Rudyard Kipling' & he's not wrong!

Troels very scary isn't it. I hope more of that sort of thing is unearthed before Thursday, a few minds might be changed!

SapphireMoon · 16/09/2014 14:26

I'm a lurker.
I am British though English at a push, living in England.
I am desperate for it to be a no vote.

How dare anyone say it has nothing to do with me because on paper I am English living in England?
I had a Scottish Granny and a Welsh Nanna. An English Grandpa and Grandad.
This vote effects all of us in Britain.
It is absolutely not just a Scottish concern.
A yes vote will be desperately sad as far as I am concerned.
I hate being a bystander to the possible separation of Scotland from Britain.

LatteLoverLovesLattes · 16/09/2014 14:27

livingzuid I'm glad you are able to get away for a few days. DH thinks Yes peaked a bit too early let's hope he's right. It's not hard to see where your colleagues are coming from is it :(

OOAOML it's a shame you and your DH can't talk about it. It might be a bit easier once this is over and there are more 'knowns' than 'unknowns'. Though I seem to recall you saying it might be the end of your marriage either way :( At least I suppose, in the event of a 'no' vote, you could at least live locally to the children... I really feel for you. Sadly I am sure there will be others going through similar problems.

ChelsyHandy · 16/09/2014 14:31

OOAML

Christ. Seriously? He said that?

TroelsNextCampaignManager · 16/09/2014 14:31

OOAOML perhaps your DH thinks it's just scaremongering that your job will go, or if it does he thinks there will be other opportunities, which is why he was so blase about you "leaving"? If the hard reality does kick in and your job is moved he may well be more sympathetic. Either way, I hope you manage to work things out Flowers

ChelsyHandy · 16/09/2014 14:33

Thank you SapphireMoon. I would do one of those bunches of flowers things but I can't on my phone.

edamsavestheday · 16/09/2014 14:40

Britishness is a good thing. It's a positive thing. I've always been glad I come from what has been described, fondly, as a 'mongrel' race. I have a Scottish surname and ancestors, Irish, Welsh, and English heritage. 'My' people come from all over these British Isles and I am definitely British, not purely English.

It will be a shame if we end up divided, a crying shame, and especially if it is achieved by Salmond and the intimidation of his camp.

LatteLoverLovesLattes · 16/09/2014 14:42

SapphireMoon I'm English in England too and feel the same. I think the large majority do. Unfortunately the minority, being extremely vocal, cause the issues on both sides.

Fontella · 16/09/2014 14:45

Apparently Spain's Europe Minister, Inigo Mendez de Vigo, has warned Scotland won't be part of the EU for five years. Said Alex Salmon's claims have 'more ifs than a poem by Rudyard Kipling'.

Did he really say that?

Grin Grin Grin

if true, that's made my day!

Amongst all the angst, there are some real laugh out loud moments and Mr De Vigo's analogy made me roar.

I like it nearly as much as 'President King Salmond the First' which some wag wrote on a post elsewhere that for some reason, tickled my funny bone big time.

Grin
Sallyingforth · 16/09/2014 14:46

Reading these posts I have almost cried. And I'm the least emotional of people.

How dare Salmond and his cronies offer false, unachievable promises that are causing such heartbreak? All this just to get his name in the history books.

LatteLoverLovesLattes · 16/09/2014 14:47

Edam It will be a shame if we end up divided, a crying shame, and especially if it is achieved by Salmond and the intimidation of his camp that's the worst of it isn't it. If the majority of people in Scotland wanted independence and knew what they were getting I would still be very sad to see the UK broken like this - but when it's being done by the likes of AS who is only out to score points/win at any cost... it's heartbreaking, to think our Union could be broken by that odious little man & his insidious ways taking people with him who genuinely believe they will be better off - to find out that in fact they will be worse off and there's no way back :(