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Indyref 12 - keeping the ball rolling

999 replies

flippinada · 15/09/2014 20:38

Hope everyone doesn't mind, I'm to keep the discussion going. As you were folks :)

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14
Fontella · 16/09/2014 01:23

Salmond's list of enemies grows longer by the day

Despite the SNP's attempts to silence its critics, the First Minister's claims about separation are gradually being demolished

Many more members were added yesterday to the “Grand Conspiracy” that Alex Salmond reckons has been put together by David Cameron to stymie his plans to break up Britain.

Following all of the banks, most of the finance houses, many of the supermarkets, foreign leaders – including the Pope, President Obama and Australia’s Tony Abbott – all saying that for Scotland to leave the United Kingdom wouldn’t be an altogether good idea — and that’s putting it at its mildest — another bunch of people joined the queue last night.

They were a disparate group and included a brass hat full of generals and other senior servicemen, an “opinion” of economists, the daughter of the rector at Alex Salmond’s secondary school, a senior medical academic and a man whose companies have clocked up £1?billion from North Sea oil and gas.

There may well be others but that’s not bad for starters. The soldiers, sailors and airmen say: “As former members of the Royal Navy, British Army and Royal Air Force who are proud to call Scotland our home, we passionately believe that the people of Scotland will be stronger and more secure if we remain part of the United Kingdom.” They are joined by a total of 400 servicemen of all ranks who all subscribe to that view.

Then we had 13 economists saying that independence would be gambling “with the economic prospects of the present generation of those living in the great country of Scotland and the generations to follow. As experienced and respected economists we would urge you to vote NO on the 18th of September …”

Fiona Scott felt compelled to speak out against Mr Salmond because she had heard that the SNP leader has been speaking of the influence her late father, the First Minister’s one-time school headmaster, had had on him. “He would be appalled at what is happening across our country, “ said Mrs Scott.

Dr Richard Weller, a senior lecturer in dermatology, warned of the impact breaking away from the UK would have on research funding, saying: “Across the university sector, Scotland is hugely successful and ranked first in the world in terms of research impact by GDP. All of this is at risk with the uncertainties of a move to independence.”

And Sir Ian Wood, whose bona fides and expertise have been seriously challenged by leading nationalists in recent weeks after he produced some dire forecasts about future oil and gas revenues, has returned to the fray. In a devastating attack on Alex Salmond’s “misinformation and spin” Sir Ian repeated his view that the oil was running out and that it would deliver nothing like the amount of revenue for an independent Scotland that’s been claimed by Mr Salmond.

He said he was shocked that the nationalists’ “fervour” for independence and anti-British sentiment was blinding them to the consequences.

These are all serious people, free-thinking individuals who are not easily brow-beaten and their views cannot be glibly swatted aside by Mr Salmond and his fellow Nat leaders, as those of people who could be easily led by the nose and made to say things they don’t believe.

Full article here .....

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/11098298/Salmonds-list-of-enemies-grows-longer-by-the-day.html

CharlieSoddingRascal · 16/09/2014 01:29

I'm English and British but of Scottish and Irish heritage and proud of it but I'm also proud to be English, I love my adopted nation and how they adopted me.

I fear for an independent Scotland born out of fervent nationalism, I visited Scotland recently and felt judged solely on my accent, IMO that is as bad as judging someone on the colour of their skin. Nothing else mattered, I have a Scottish surname, an Irish passport and typically Celtic looks bit I speak with an English accent so can fuck off. It is nasty, dividing and will not a successful nation make, why would anyone want to move to a country like that? Certainly not anyone hoping to integrate and make a success of an independent Scotland.

The biggest issues for me are:

The oil: it does not matter if Scotland has oil worth ten billionty trillionty pounds, if it costs ten billionty trillionty and one pounds to sell it then it is not an asset. That is before we get onto Fracking. Fracking in the UK would have Environmental consequences but it'll also trash the price of Scotland's oil fields to uneconomic.

Tourism and trade with the rUK: yep adding a economic border and really pissing your main trading partner off is a really good idea. Well done that was clearly thought through.

Currency Union: squeal all you like. It. Is. Not. Happening.

EU and NATO membership: Not happening, possibly ever. Does anyone really think the poor Baltic states were admitted in order to spread democracy and defend these weaker nations? What if NATO only admits you on the basis of Faslane staying where it is? Are you going to break a campaign promise straight away? Scotland could stay out on the basis that rUK would defend it in our own interests but it would not prevent incursions into Scottish waters and in a full scale assault on Scotland rUK would have less compunction to minimise civilian casualties.

The flight of business southward: banks will have to move, as will rUK government bodies. We won't be subsiding warships in Scotland. There is also the prospect of an independent Scotland reigniting nationalism in rUK, we will all face pain from Scotland's withdrawal. This could lead to rUK customers boycotting companies based in Scotland, let's see how long Murdoch supports Sky in Scotland if his profits go through the floor.

This is all before we get onto the everyday burdens that Scotland will face, groceries, postage, and all other goods will go up, or is Scotland expecting another country to happily shoulder the burden of delivering to the more remote communities? Then there is the fanciful idea that Scotland will get 10% of the Special Forces, the SF are people, they cannot be forced to move to Scotland and do you really think 10% of the most determined people who put themselves through incredible trials to join the UKSF are going to happily give it up and piss off to Scotland to do... Well what exactly? Even if Scotland gets invaded there won't be enough of them to make a difference.

I hope to god Scotland sees sense this week but if not, I fear it will be a very painful lesson for us all and the rUK will not have you back at any point in the possible future. If you vote yes and change your mind when it looks to hard then tough shit, the damage will already have been done.

Fontella · 16/09/2014 02:10

Great post charlie

I'm just reading a Guardian article on currency union. The comments are are just staggering.

The Yessers on there are absolutely fucking clueless - sorry to swear but that is the sum of it. The ever patient and polite Guardian readers are trying their best to explain it in the most simplistic terms and it just isn't getting through.

Honest to God, the ignorance and naivity on that side of the argument is just staggering. They honestly think they are going to swan off, rUK is going to cave in, give them CU and everything else they want and if they don't they are being horribly mean and unfair. You couldn't make it up if you tried.

You are right to evoke God. God help Scotland!

www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/sep/15/independent-scotland-not-use-pound-english-welsh-voters

Spiritedwolf · 16/09/2014 03:37

twitter.com/benrileysmith/status/511627192468783104/photo/1

This isn't surprising. An ex of the whisky trade body said that they were given the impression that if they raised concerns about independence then the industry would be punished in a BBC documentary months ago.

Then there is the press releases which the Scottish government helpfully writes and sends to the press on behalf of people without their agreement.

There is a lot of arrogance and bully boy tactics at work. They may moan about the power of the British State, but I think it actually says more about how they would work if they had such contacts than what the British government is actually managing to achieve.

Jenny Marra (another Labour rising star) was told that her human rights trafficking bill wasn't a priority for the Scottish people (as opposed to discussing Scotland's national tree and one year to the Ryder cup - which were the sort of things being discussed in parliament at the time and wasn't given the time of day till she managed to get a huge public response to the consultation.

Common sense, non political changes to bills suggested at the committee level by the opposition to improve and clarify legislation is knocked back by the SNP just because they can.

I have real concerns about democracy in our current Scotland, nevermind deciding everything else there. What plans are there to have a second chamber, or for more MSPs for the greater workload associated with having so many more powers?

Spiritedwolf · 16/09/2014 03:46

Once again, as it was overlooked last night. I am very concerned about the shape of Scotland that the SNP are presiding over:

Police Scotland frisk nine times as many people as the NYPD
Police Scotland stopped and searched thousands of children under 12
Police Scotland Stop and Search Rates Four Times Higher than England and Twice as High as London

This is not my Scotland

Roonerspism · 16/09/2014 04:17

charlie this is a huge concern for me too. I am ashamed of being Scottish when I hear my English friends say the same thing. Utterly ashamed.

I absolutely agree this is a form of racism and I fear it will get worse, no matter what happens with the vote. This referendum has always meant "anti-England" for me and I am utterly sick of this "woe is us" attitude of some of my fellow Scots. A child living in poverty over the border matters every bit as much as the ones in my city. This "we are all right jack" attitude is revolting. (And by the way, we will most definitely not be all right).

God help us all.

I climbed the Pentland Hills at the weekend and wept as I looked at my beautiful city before me, which no longer feels like home. And I was born and bred here.

cedricsneer · 16/09/2014 06:09

We need another mn poll

Those who have been reading these threads will be so much better informed now. I for one missed the first one.

RubbishRobotFromTheDawnOfTime · 16/09/2014 06:22

Can I just say here my English father has lived and worked in Scotland (worked all over Scotland from D&G to tiny Hebridean Islands) since 1980 and has never experienced anti-English sentiment.

My English DH has lived here for 12 years and can say the same.

EarthWindFire · 16/09/2014 06:24

I don't think people are saying it's always been the case, just that with this going in it's thatched upbs level.

EarthWindFire · 16/09/2014 06:24

*ratched up a level Blush

KristinaM · 16/09/2014 06:26

My brother has a English accent and works in one of the most deprived parts of Scotland and had never experienced any anti English sentiments either.

EarthWindFire · 16/09/2014 06:44

I have a 'mixed' accent and I have and I know others that have too.

It quite often isn't blatant but under the veil of 'banter'.

Toadinthehole · 16/09/2014 06:58

I had someone threaten to smash a bottle over my head.

EarthWindFire · 16/09/2014 07:07

Sorry about multi posts but my brain won't rest and I have been thinking about what has been said in some quarters about a no vote being a selfish one.

One of my major worries as others have said is the NHS and healthcare I know that in some eyes it will make me even more selfish.

I am probably outing myself a bit here but tbh I'm past caring.

I have a degenerative illness which is getting worse and all this stress isn't helping and on huge amounts of medication (over 30 tablets a day and that is just my regular medication)

I do wonder what will happen to my care. I have a good relationship with my providers, however I am worried about the pressures a iScotland would put on already strained services further. If my help diminishes then my DP and family will have to pick up the slack and they all ready do more than they should. Sad

It is probably minor to many as something to be concerned about, but it is a concern to me along with all if the other reasons.

TeamScotland · 16/09/2014 07:16

cedric agree another MN poll would be good.

TheBogQueen · 16/09/2014 07:17

George Galloway? Grin and his hat

I haven't experienced any anti- English sentiment in the run up to the referendum. I'm not saying it doesn't go on. But it certainly isn't some sort of epidemic.

I understand the nationalism to be civic nationalism rather than ethnic nationalism.

OneNight · 16/09/2014 07:22

It's interesting to me to watch the reaction to all of this from the first time voting youngsters in my own family. They seem to be remarkably clear headed and in fact it's almost as if all of the political shenanigans which their elders take for granted were washing over them. I don't know how all of them will vote but I think more of them have studied the issues carefully than I would have expected.

Whatever the result on Friday I consider that to be a hopeful sign for this country.

EarthWindFire · 16/09/2014 07:23

George Galloway? and his hat

Yep not sure what that hat is all about Shock

TeamScotland · 16/09/2014 07:27

Agree Bog

I can't believe I'm reading praise, on mumsnet of all places, for George Galloway, he's an odious, nasty, woman hating little creep!

OneNight · 16/09/2014 07:33

I have to admit that I'd have been hard put to sit on the same platform as that man (although I absolutely would not sit on the same platform as Murdoch) but surely no-one should be threatened in the way that Galloway was threatened, TS?

StatisticallyChallenged · 16/09/2014 07:47

Not got time to read properly but someone mentioned something due to come out re nhs cuts... m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-29213416

MindReader · 16/09/2014 07:57

Well, my family have experienced ethnic nationalism. No question. Sad

Luckytwo · 16/09/2014 08:02

I'm pretty sure that the NHS faces huge challenges across the whole of the UK, statistically.
My husband is a director of a trust in England and there is no money here either.

StatisticallyChallenged · 16/09/2014 08:08

I know they do -but the snp are claiming they protect the nhs. It was shown by the ifs the other day that they have cut funding already whilst it has increased in England. And now this. They've used the nhs as a major reason for independence and it's pretty much rubbish.

Luckytwo · 16/09/2014 08:14

Also the Spanish minister has a hidden agenda as half of Spain want independence from the Spanish government.

The thing is all of this is propaganda on both sides.

I don't know which was it will go on Thursday, I expect a no but will not be wholly surprised if it's a yes. Life will go on whatever, but it will take some time to get over it all, and I think if it's a no, the spectre of independence will always lurk in the background.

Love him (does anyone?) or hate him salmond was forced into a corner by Cameron with no choice of devomax, the only real option. Why would the people of Scotland believe the WM politicians now?

That is what I can't get my head around.

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