to think England (and Wales and NI) Should have a say

[LEMmingaround]

In the Scottish referendum.

My own personal view based on not very much more than gut feeling is that a yes vote will be a bad thing for the whole of Britain. Being English i don't have a vote.

Surely thats not right. It is going to affect us. Don't we get a vote?

Bent over backwards to support devolution, which in turn has led to free prescriptions etc. if you choose to read other than that into it it's your choice.

Cameron has also promised further devolution if a no vote is cast. Win win Scotland. As an English person I have got annoyed at the anti English sentiment expressed from so many scots hence my support of the yes campaign.

pink Scots living elsewhere don't have a vote because they won't be living with the consequences of the decision. Non-Scots living in Scotland do get a vote for exactly the same reason.

Yes, some Scots not currently resident here may intend to come back, but how on earth would you police that? How would you distinguish between those just away for a few years and those who have made a permanent home elsewhere?

My Dsis lives in Yorkshire and has made a very happy life there with her Scottish husband. They never plan to return. They certainly don't feel entitled to a vote. My English in-laws are entitled to a vote as they are permanently resident.

Under Scottish law you are an adult at 16 yo. We can't have our 16&17 year old vote in ither elections because the rUK age of legal competence is 18. As this vote is just for Scotland we brought our voting rules into line with our national laws.

I (and others) have repeated both these points on several threads. It's not complicated people. There's no great conspiracy.

Ps I know 16&17 yos who are voting 'no' if that makes you feel better. They'd be extremely offended should anyone suggest they haven't carefully considered their vote. There's nothing magic that happens at 18 to make you more competent to make a decision.

pink I honestly haven't seen any anti-English campaigning. I understand that's not what you are seeing in the media in rUK but it's not my experience.

Personally I've lost faith in even the BBC since the Nick Robinson debacle.

There is no promise of further devo if we vote No. There have been various mutterings, and even a "timetable", but there is no concrete plan, no guarantee of "extra powers" at all.

There have also been mutterings of slashing our budget and doing away with Barnett. I tend to believe the latter.

they bent over backwards to support devolution because that's what the population of Scotland had decided they wanted. That's pesky old democracy for you.

Pink. Hold tight. I'll try and speak slowly for you.

England didn't really "Bend over backwards" support devolution. In 1997, the UK as a whole voted in a Labour government who had, as a manifesto pledge, the offer of a referendum on a devolved government for both Wales and Scotland. In the referendum, both nations voted yes. As a result, the Scottish Parliament and the Welsh Assembly was set up. You are aware that Wales also have free prescriptions? And in Scotland we don't pay for eye tests either! So what you are actually complaining about is that the government which controls your NHS and education system has different priorities. If you can't see that, I fear there is no hope.

If it bothers you SO much, please feel free to come and live here. It's a bit colder than some parts of England, but my husband successfully made the move from Hampshire to Glasgow without too much of an issue, and many of my friends up here came to study and never returned south. You'd be most welcome, as long as you can get the chip off your shoulder at Gretna.

Chair. Thank you

I don't have a chip on my shoulder and have successfully transplanted from Ireland so understand immigration and integration, but thanks for the slow message.

Just one question. Will Scotland take over some of the national debt, most particularly the RBS debt? AS has threatened not to do so if not allowed to remain in sterling. Is that a reasonable throwing the toys out of the pram attitude? After all the remainder of the UK cannot be expected to guarantee the ? Bank of Scotland if and when it arrives.

Good on you though for getting rid of Trident. Don't send it here though as we don't want it either

Seriously though, why destroy a union that has lasted hundreds of years and which will inevitably cause short term depression of both tentatively recovering economies? Surely the UK should be looking at devolution on a greater scale for the other home countries? Why push now and plunge us all back into depression. An ongoing discussion and a pledge for all countries in the union to obtain independence when the world economy is stronger and instability in the world was less of an issue.

Eh? What about children in Kenya and Peru then?

I actually think David Cameron was right to stay out of it ,( can't believe it sounds like I am praising a Tory leader this is what this vote has brought me too !) but I think he tried to stay out realising it might sway more to vote Yes if he looked like he was telling us what to do. Just wish the No campaign had been more vocal at the start and put No on some Saltires as I feel they left it a bit late and the Yes campaign hijacked our flag . Its hardly win win Scotland tho is it, months of listening to politicians every night most of us will be glad when its over whentheNovoteswin

Pinkrose1
Bank of Scotland has existed since 1695.

Seriously though, why destroy a union that has lasted hundreds of years and which will inevitably cause short term depression of both tentatively recovering economies?

Would you have said the same about Ireland in 1922, pinkrose?

at straightalkinJill - that's hilarious...unless... it's not meant to be serious, is it?

grockle you are hilarious.

My 16 yo DD will be voting and i can say she understands very well the implications of it being a Yes majority. She and her friends have read up on it, watched debates and i know she has discussed it with us at home. She is a resolute No, as are all her friends.

Our neice, 16 years old, is also voting No. Her cousins have all flown the nest and, I don't know the reasons for it, but they have all gone to England or Wales. All of them lived in the big cities in middle class homes in Scotland and jobs weren't an issue. One transferred from his Glasgow based job to London with the same company and the other was offered a job in Dundee and went for a job in London instead (much to the disgust of my SIL in Edinburgh who is staunch Yes). One nephew eent to Eales to do his postgraduate degree and stayed.

I believe our neice is planning to do the same when she gets through college or university. Much as we'd welcome her - I am English living in England with Scottish hubby - I just wonder why no one has ever asked why they are all coming South (or West in the case of the nephew in Wales). It doesn't make sense to me but I guess young people like to move away at some point.

Anyway with a view to the initial question, no I don't think we in rUK should have got a vote on independence. If we voted yes and the Scots voted No, what would the plan be? All grab a spade, dig a trench and hire some tugboats to tow them nearer Shetland?

And if we said Yes and Scots No what happens then? Sanctions to make them stay? Send in the troops? And have a bloody fuming neighbour who REALLY feels under the cosh?

What I do think though is that MPs have seriously misread (if they have taken any thought on it at all) the strength of feeling in rUK re the pound, devo Max etc. As I have said on another post, the MPs will only stay MPs if we vote for them. We vote in May. Right in the middle of any independence negotiations. So we can put our view across if we aren't happy with what is or has been put on the table whether the vote goes Yes or No on Thursday. The rUK can significantly change what is on offer to AS in return for something from the Scots (it does work both ways. AS wants the pound. We want some oil revenues, for example)...

MPs can only vote on changes or negotiations if they have a seat. And it is my cross and that of my nephew in Wales and my friend in Belfast that will decide who sits around the table come next May. So we will have a say albeit a bit later down the line.

Although it will be hard on the rUK if Scotland goes I wish them well if they vote to leave and I will still be visiting (even without SIL living in the country). If they stay I will be just as pleased for them. But I will not beg a country to stay, neither will I be telling them to fuck off! The people of Scotland are clever, proud and intelligent people for the most part. As are those in England, Wales and N Ireland and none of us need to be patronised, ignored or shouted down.

Finally, Pinkrose, the Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish Parliament/Assemblies get their cash under the Barnett formula. That was put in place in the 70s and I believe the current amount is 11% of budget for the Scots to do as they will in certain budgets like NHS. Think of it like a household budget. You and DH get £50 own cash out of your joint income. He decides to buy a pair of shoes and you get your hair done. Same money, different priorities.

Went to Sales? Bloody tablet! Went to Wales!

Thanks for the info, AgentProvocateur :)

Another good post Esmum07 -

I'm English, living in England and would love to vote, but completely understand why this would be inappropriate. This really is a matter for those residing in Scotland.
In the event if a Yes majority though I would like to see parliament dissolved and I would like to be able to vote in a new government with a mandate to negotiate the Exit.

I'm English and I would be sad to see Scotland leave but I completely understand why people vote yes -I would too, despite the huge economic gamble that becoming independent involves. What makes me sad about this whole thing is the level of anti-English sentiment that this has stirred up. I understand anger at Westminster, I have a lot of my own anger for Westminster, but some of the xenophobic behaviour towards English people living in Scotland is heartbreaking to me. I wonder what it will be like to live in Scotland after the vote, no matter which way it goes?

Pinkrose your exact words were "The UK gov has bent over backwards for Scotland with free prescriptions "......the UK gov has nothing to go with the SG deciding to go that so what did you mean then?

You really dont get it at all do you pinkrose. If you want free prescriptions ask the HIV responsible for your health budget.

Obviously government not HIV!

I'm not English (I'm actually from Guatemala!) but the UK is my adopted home, my kids are English and DP's parents are Scottish, but he isn't. I will be sad for the UK to go, despite not being British, and I can't explain why. But I'm fed up with colonising talk. No way in hell. My brother in law has a Scottish surname because his ancestors were owned by a Scot. Scots were very much part of the colonising going on around the world, they weren't innocent parts of the empire. Highland clearances- the ordinary people were fucked over by rich Scots in the main. It was a union, really coming from the terrible economy in Scotland at the time, so no invasion of Scotland on England or the rUK's part.

I think the Scottish parliament will be filled with rich, power hungry liars, like Westminster, like countries the world over. In Britain, the politicians are significantly better than most places around the world and your government is a lot nicer and kinder than most places around the world (trust me) but they still mainly come from one type of background and one class, one gender, sexuality and race. In Scotland, you'll be governed by rich, upperclass men who lie just to stay in power, aka Holyrood now, and will fuck the country over, but this time, you won't have the EU behind you, you won't have international standing which would have at least excuse Salmond's idea of negotiating, you won't have a stable economy or a currency union or any other form of protection.