Indyref 10. The Marathon Continues..

[WildThong]

All welcome

I just spoke to my brother who is in Aberdeenshire. He and his wife and their son who is unfortunately only 15 moved from possible yes to firm no for the reasons the no posters here have listed and a suspicious this is just about Salmond's vanity.

They are ordinary working people and can see no benefits at all and a real chance of ruining Scotland. My brother said the yes supporters he meets are largely motivated by being anti English.

I hope for a No vote (obviously) but it would be great if the ordinary people who have engaged with this process stayed engaged and helped bring about the changes we all want

Well personally I do intend to stay involved. I've always been a bit of an 'armchair consumer' of political opinion, apart from involvement in a few local issue campaigns. But now I feel totally fired up (although my legs and back are a bit tired this evening) and I really don't intend to just slide away. I imagine and hope that's true for a lot of people.

I didn't say you or every yes campaigner is intimidating pretty bird. I'm sure you are as lovely as my friend and family members who plan to vote Yes. However I've explained several reasons why I sometimes feel intimidated by the yes campaign.

You can dismiss my concerns as ridiculous if you like, but I'm being honest about how I feel and I doubt I'm the only one. People on another Mumsnet thread said similar things. They aren't always keeping quiet because they are scared - often they just don't want the argument. or don't want to fall out with family, friends or neighbours over it.

Someone on that thread said that a yes campaigner told a yes neighbour of a no voter how the no voter was voting and to try and persuade her. That is not on - not everyone wants their neighbours to know how they are voting, and it is disrespectful to her view as well.

"Yes-voting lawyer friend is an officer in the TA. He is shocked that the MoD does indeed appear to have done no contingency planning they may be doing some panic planning now"

Unless his day job is in the MoD he's highly unlikely to know what planning is going on.

They'll need to work out a formula for real estate, equipment and personnel. I don't think it can just be done on 'keep what falls within your new borders' as that will leave horribly unbalanced forces. iScotland will need to say what sort of defence force it wants (seems to be mainly territorial defence, rather than projecting force) and then see if sufficient assets/resources can be transferred to meet those aims whilst still acting proportionately.

That's probably why scenario planning can be done (in tandem with the latest cuts restructuring) but actual work can't start until iScotland exists and articulates its opening position.

Chunderella, a previous poster triggered my response, a few pages before I first mentioned it. I cannae be ersed looking back ..... And must now switch off this machine and do some other things with my life. Au revoir, tout le monde

wild I agree. I'm a staunch no voter but accept that something isn't quite right for so many people to want to reject what we have. Of course, a deep recession is behind much of it.

But the apathy in politics generally - I think a no vote will be a huge impetus for change. We remain in the union but with renewed energy for the power of politics.

My voting has been all over the place in recent years but I shall re-join the Labour Party. I do feel a stronger left wing opposition might have prevented the current turmoil.

I have mixed feelings about DevoMax though but that's another debate.

but it would be great if the ordinary people who have engaged with this process stayed engaged and helped bring about the changes we all want

I agree. I have in previous years left all of the political stuff up to my DP (who is quite politicised and engaged and always has been) but now I do think I'll stay engaged.

Corey a no vote doesn't mean no change. It means no to some of the craziest things I never thought I would ever hear in my own country that make me feel physically sick. It's embracing stability, financial and social - what is wrong with that? Nothing! It means no, I would like to work with everyone else in the UK, not sit in solemn isolation away from all the things that currently make the UK one of the greatest countries in the world and Scotland a leading contributor. Scotland can continue to enjoy all the benefits that comes of being a G8 member on the world stage, and really have its voice heard in the international community whilst putting the money internally where it's needed as it will gain more fiscal control. There's so much to look forward to.

With a no vote, Scotland can be proud of the starting point of political change throughout the country. I think it was beginning at the last election with people so fed up of all the other parties. This is not a situation unique to Scotland, even within the different regions of England. But now the discussion on a more devolved and federal structure can begin and it is thanks to Scotland that this happened in the first place. There are many people cheering the No voters on south of the border, so many millions of people hoping for this outcome so we as a whole can have a radical overhaul of our system which is simply no longer fit for purpose anywhere in the country. But by doing it together it will be so much more effective. Scotland is the pioneer in all of this. Lots of people want change. It will happen. After everything that has happened, there is no way that it can't.

Roonerspism , just today I had a fit of guilt over having washed my hands of Labour.

Livingzuid brilliant post.

I think building a stronger Labour party that has learnt from its mistakes is a positive thing to do Roonerspism. I'm optimistic about Ed, the right wing press don't like him but that's a good recommendation in my book

bardar to be fair, Labour hasn't made it easy to support them in the last few years. Completely off topic, but I wish it was David Miliband that had won the leadership vote.

Not so off topic wildthing. If it had been anyone else but Ed I wonder if the polls would be as they are.

AS could have done much more to promote the green cause. The 'leccie from Scottish renewables is bought by the UK at a generous price that effectively subsidises it. If no longer part of UK, rUK won't be so 'generous'.
He isn't willing to leave the oil where it is instead of burning it all. He doesn't campaign for multi-lateral disarmament (as far as I know) = he's happy just to not have a few nuclear missiles on Scottish territory.
There could be far more incentives to live a greener lifestyle - cheaper public transport, financial rewards for recycling, higher taxes for unnecessary packaging, promotion of IT that would reduce the need to travel - poor IT infrastructure in rural areas etc, funding for research into greener cars: I don't see the SNP championing greener practices.

livingzuid absolutely spot on - a No vote is a vote for a slow but stable transformation not a leap over a cliff as it will be with a Yes

Sorry, WildThong I spelled your name wrong. And Ed Milliband is about as inspirational as a wet sock.

phaedra thank you. I x posted and saw the comments on devolution but having spent quite some years in Europe I think it's the way to go too. I had no idea I would feel so strongly about things as I do, but as so many posters have now commented I am considering how to get more politically engaged regardless of the way this election goes.

It's just ridiculous to say that a no vote is a vote for no change! We're only months away from a GE.

Whereas voting for independence is voting for what? The widely discredited SNP white paper - which the SNP are quick to remind us is not the thing we'd be voting for anyway? - No, independence from so much that is successful and laudable with the promise of getting the government that 'we have voted for'. I don't think that's a good reason to vote yes.

chocco arf was in response to you saying my yes vote was a protest vote.

Obvious by the rest of my post I would have thought.

Like most Yessers I speak to, I'm voting so that the government governing Scotland is in Holyrood, not Westminster and it is the party the majority of the people of Scotland have voted for, each election.

And my apologies if anyone has seen this already or had it linked, but thought I would link Groundskeeper Willie's opinion to add a light note :D

Livingzuid brilliant post - I agree. I want change too. I live in England

Previous co-convener of the Greens is voting No (I think I did a link to a story about him on the first page).

teamscotland that's a fair enough point you make. Representation seems very skewed for so many in parliament.

But what of the cost, financial and emotional too? Surely you don't believe the random projections of the Yes campaign which are astoundingly low. I know building projects that cost more than the figures given. It's not just about moving a parliament, it is everything. Am I the only person that thinks it will be beyond a nightmare? If it takes however many years to build one tramline in Edinburgh at a cost of whatevers, then how on earth is it going to be done for a whole nation to be independent and everything that goes with it?

New ICM poll has yes at 54 no at 46. Small sample size. Just shows how unreliable polls are I'm this ref.

TeamScotland - you want to be governed by the people who live in your country. As a UK citizen I consider myself to be governed by the people who live in my country. We share the same island.

Looks ahead to an independent Scotland. And the Orkney and Shetland MN-etters laughing at the thought that anyone could think their vote for independence is a protest against the gov't of holyrood, when their completely justifiable reason is the wish to be governed from Kirkwall or Lerwick.

Reductio ad absurdam.