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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Indyref 9

999 replies

IrnBruTheNoo · 11/09/2014 14:00

...

OP posts:
AnnieHoo · 11/09/2014 23:10

Santana! You've made your mark in history. Grin

LittleBearPad · 11/09/2014 23:11

Apologies for the digression, but why has George Galloway got that stupid bloody hat on. Does he think he's a Broadway producer.

SantanaLopez · 11/09/2014 23:15
Grin

At least GG isn't wearing the cat suit, tbh.

If we are lucky enough to get a No vote, the government have had a very lucky escape. They must implement these changes or the SNP will just demand another referendum, and they'll have even more weapons to use against WM.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 11/09/2014 23:20

They must implement these changes or the SNP will just demand another referendum

Some of us believe that the SNP will demand another vote if they don't get what they want anyway ... details such as "extra powers" will just be another excuse

On the same subject, can I also point out that there's no "must" about it, and that the rest of the UK population might have views about this too?

TheCraicDealer · 11/09/2014 23:22

Stupidly just trawled through a pile of comments on Facebook re. the referendum. Really put into focus how well informed these threads have been, as well as courteous (ahem). Can't believe some of the ridiculous logic out there- 'Why do we need an army, everyone likes us. It's yous cunts the world can't stand. No one will invade us" [facepalm]

I can see why independence is desirable, and why people were motivated to vote Yes in principle. But I don't get why after the last few days people still think it's a good idea now. Even more uncertainty, too many questions left unanswered, and the things we can make an educated guess on look about as promising as a fart in a lift.

Mammuzza · 11/09/2014 23:24

So behind the headlines the substance is where?

From a lay woman's persepctive I think the substance is probably the known quantity that uncertainty can cause runs on banks.

I actually had no idea that the majority of the customers of the RBS weren't Scottish. Between uncertainty that money is safe and won't go and get devalued or something due to currency upsets, plus a fair old whack of bad feeling further down geographically, I can see why they might have worries that the contents of bank accounts might take flight.

If you believe that everything is going to fine then it might be hard to get your head around what it feels inside the belly of the people who don't share the same degree of faith. In my personal experience (during the time that the British press were having a field day screetching that Italy was going bankrupt) when you don't believe everything will necessarily be fine then it is like having a rat gnawing on your intestines night after night, and at a certain point something snaps and doing something like withdrawing funds or changing banks, even though it is scary/a pain the arse .... becomes the only way to get a little peace on one level at least. I was still worried, not least that my house might decide to burn down right when I had a couple of grand in euros secreted in various bits of it. But it was still better than fearing I might wake up one morning with little or bugger all where our (small by most standards, but really rather important to us) savings used to be.

I think what they have done is pretty clever. It's enough for customers down south to interpret as "don't panic, your cash is safe, we'll move it down south if it's a Yes" but not so much that the pro yes people can't interpret it as a benign technicality and all the English waggling of it is just propaganda. So they've left themselves free to do whatever they need to do post vote without being called bald faced liars, and hedge their bets PR wise on home turf all at the same time.

But bear in mind... my entire experience of banking has been on the side of the Very Long Queue rather than behind the counter stamping things, so I could be well wide of the mark.

SantanaLopez · 11/09/2014 23:26

Some of us believe that the SNP will demand another vote if they don't get what they want anyway

You're preaching to the choir!

On the same subject, can I also point out that there's no "must" about it, and that the rest of the UK population might have views about this too?

There's a 'must' because, as you pointed out, this isn't going to go away. Of course the rest of the UK's views will be taken into account. I don't think the upcoming General Election will be a particularly pleasant one. But we really can't afford to go through another referendum.

StatisticallyChallenged · 11/09/2014 23:31

You know, I'm actually philosophical about the concept that in the future, we might well end up independence. But I would hope that it would be a much more gradual transition with gradual increase in powers until really all that's left is something not much more than a currency union. I'd rather we were in the UK personally, but I could get on board with that.

But the way things are now? The way it's being done, the division it's causing, the probable economic problems? For me, it's the wrong time, the wrong plans, the wrong politicians. I don't believe it's going to work. Not like this.

StatisticallyChallenged · 11/09/2014 23:33

Mammuzza I think you are actually very right in what you are saying. These are big, shrewd and pretty ruthless businesses. They say what they need to say, and they're treating a very careful line.

StatisticallyChallenged · 11/09/2014 23:34

treading even.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 11/09/2014 23:35

We don't need to go through another referendum, Santana - it's entirely within WM's rights to simply refuse one. Granted it would cause a lot of angst but there's a lot of that anyway, and if Scots DO choose to remain within the UK they'll perhaps need to be more mindful of just what their proportion of the population (and relative influence) is

We're all hearing a great deal at the moment about what Scotland wants / expects / demands and so on; however as I've said before, they're not the only people involved here

ChelsyHandy · 11/09/2014 23:36

I am very relieved to confirm I didn't use the phrase "trickle down" DeeeDeee, it must have been someone else!

I agree the whole thing has been handled badly and quite incompetently. I think the initial decision to force a straight Yes No choice was correct as a response to Alex Salmond and his plans. I think his initial plan was for Devo Max. I think DevoMax is only now being offered as an attempt to save the Union as a response to the recent polls. In that way, I don't find it particularly cynical as the sentiment behind it is good.

I find an unexpected fondness for the union that I never knew I had up until now. While I'm dismayed by the tendency for certain people to launch into very abusive, nasty and personal comments (not on here, this is very mild), by the political intolerance and tendency to abuse and criticise to death any politician, I'm impressed by those who have deliberately drawn back from this and acted moderately while still giving their views. I'm also (I think) impressed by the young voters, who are far more informed and articulate than I was at their age. Despite the education system. Is this the Facebook effect? Not always bad, but I cannot help noticing how young people brought up with Facebook have a tendency to write nice things. And it exposes them to differing world and political views in an accessible way that the middle aged age groups would not have had at such an impressionable age.

Sorry - late night boring ponderings!

ChelsyHandy · 11/09/2014 23:40

I don't know Statistically. In Quebec after a very close referendum it died down, didn't it? And this is very much SNP driven. More people vote against the SNP than for it, and they very much got in on the basis of bribes on free prescriptions, tuition fees and free care for the elderly.

Then it seemed to turn into class warfare, with the Yes camp claiming it was a chance to tax the rich and make society more equal. I felt that didn't represent the large swathe that didn't feel that way, and the rejoinder to that is the big banks, institutions and oil companies saying they will leave. Which just goes to show you can't really run a country on the basis of serving one sector of society only. Not in modern times anyway where violence isn't tolerated.

StatisticallyChallenged · 11/09/2014 23:43

It was me, I used Trickle Down. Forgive me oh lord for I have sacrificed my soul at the alter of consultant speak.

I do actually feel more sentiment for the union than I thought I would, which I think I've expressed a few times now. But at least of it was done right, if I felt that it would do the good so many people hoped...then I think I'd feel more upbeat about it IYSWIM?

StatisticallyChallenged · 11/09/2014 23:46

Xposted. I think Quebec did calm down, but I don't know enough to know if they had the sort of anger and division we've seen here or whether it was a less heated, aggressive campaign. I think that makes a difference. There are a lot of people who I used to respect who I find I'm losing respect for as this continues. Not because of what they are voting, but because of how they are going about it.

OOAOML · 11/09/2014 23:48

Well I missed the thread tonight but am gutted that Deeee only rates Statistically. Statistically is, of course, awesome, but there are other intelligent and nice No voters here too Wink

Hope you're going to keep that paper Santana Grin

StatisticallyChallenged · 11/09/2014 23:52

teeheehee OOAOML. It's ok, I'm still exaggerating and fearful and predicting doomsday scenarios. Typical No voter, really.

OOAOML · 11/09/2014 23:57

Those pesky numbers, they're a terrible barrier aren't they?

StatisticallyChallenged · 11/09/2014 23:59
Grin
AnnieHoo · 12/09/2014 00:02

It's impossible to read this. The number of new registrations is high. I think that's in Yes's favour. Their campaign has been working tirelessly to get people to register.

prettybird · 12/09/2014 00:03

Maybe it's because of the education system Grin ( pace Rose Wink)

I know that a big part of ds' English last year was about the ability to argue coherently for and against something (he got a 1 - and to quote his very scary English teacher, "I don't give 1s lightly Hmm" Grin). I can't remember what it's called: discursive talking or something like that.

forago · 12/09/2014 00:14

RBS havent said they'll only move the brass plaque. They've said their registered office will become the office in London, not Fettes Row. That means they'll be an English company trading on the English stock exchange. Controlled by the Bank of England, regulated by English authorities. That's a bit more significant than just moving the brass plaque isn't it?

PhaedraIsMyName · 12/09/2014 00:54

It's odd about being sentimental about the union but I am and I know others are too.

StatisticallyChallenged · 12/09/2014 00:59

I know what you mean Phaedra, I definitely am a bit sentimental about it too. I'd give that sentimentality up though if I really could believe that it was a) what the majority really wanted b) that it would actually make things better rather than worse and c) that the time was right - the economic conditions, political conditions, right plans etc.

None of that I believe is really true at the moment.

sconequeen · 12/09/2014 02:26

Just as a little light relief, wanted to comment on how surreal this referendum experience can seem at times.

I mean, for example, did Ruth Davidson ever think she would be sitting on the same side of a debate with George Galloway? I think her facial expression on the Big Debate tonight at various points when he was speaking said it all...