Question for Scots who left...

[dalziel1]

How do you feel about the possibility that Scotland may soon vote for independence?

Personally, I am saddened by the things I am hearing from my family about the aggressive divisions forming between neighbours - calling each other Quisling, traitor etc. Whatever happens this referendum will leave deep divisions in Scotland.

When I call home and compare the reporting in England of the issues with that in Scotland, its like 2 completely different stories. e.g. My mum hadn't heard that 130 international company leaders had said the case was not made, but she'd heard that 200 small business owners had said it was.

The impression I am getting is that there is such an pro-independence juggernaut in Scotland, with "I'm saying yes" posters all over the place, and St Andrew's cross flags flying and yes rallies, that even those who don't want independence are beginning to say its an inevitability (and the English never treated them fairly, etc., etc).

Its as if the widely held view is that people want independence and its only a case if they can afford it. Is that what everyone else is hearing too?

I don't get a vote but may I just say that I don't want to be a foreigner in the UK?? (And I have a husband and children here in England so I can't just move back to Scotland even if I wanted to).

I'm really scared at the prospect of no. I'm really fed up of the "feartie"and "project fear" jibes. There is nothing wrong in being scared when there is something to be scared about.

Salmond is a liar. The Better Together site has a very interesting section comparing what Eck and Nicola and John Swinney say in public and what is being said in private.

It's just the thought of it. I am taking a yes vote very personally, which I know is irrational, but there you go.

How can people vote to put so many people out of a job? It seems so damn unfair.

We have friends/ acquaintances in the city, so I think I would prefer to stay near at least a few familiar faces.

RubyrooUK - I am really sorry to read that. Its not acceptable that your mother has to live like that. I am ashamed that my fellow Scots should be so unjust.

Add message | Report | Message posterSantanaLopez Mon 08-Sep-14 21:10:49

well some posters on other threads said they want independence at any cost I actually heard people say I don't care about currency we just don't want a Tory goverment of those who really believe scotaland will sundly turn into Sweden or sum such country

This will be a distasteful for the Shetlands ECt and smaller islands

Dalziel - I know, it's awful. I grew up in Scotland and if you asked me, I'd be Scottish before British or mixed or anything else. I'm shocked to hear my mum talk about the way that the nationalism has tipped over from pride (which was always there) into this feeling that you can only want independence as a true Scot.

I think regardless of the outcome, this debate has now awakened greater divisions and dissatisfactions than ever before.

Oh and Santana, don't worry, I'm also a Scottish exile in London with small children and we love it. Can't think of a better place for them to grow up. Hopefully you can happily stay where you want, but I too echo that London is pretty good!

I feel exactly like you do, OP. I have had to leave FB all together for a while as I was just getting too upset by all the debate, arguing and propaganda. Just hoping against hope now that the vote will come out no.

I also work with the MoD including some people at very senior level. Don't want to out myself but recent conversations with them - almost all NO voters - worries me about how Scotland will defend itself as an independent country. Our armed forces, who have fought together for so long to create one of the most feared and respected military forces in the world,will be divided up and if Scotland thinks it will have enough of a force to defend itself from day one, its in for a big shock. These supposed oil rich waters are going to look mighty tempting to the might of bigger countries and the UK armed forces won't be there to defend them. Maybe Alec Salmond can send out a wee man in a rowing boat to shout "Its our oil. Go away!". That should do it!

About the whole we-want-to-leave-but-not-sure-if-we-can-afford-it thing...

If it was a marriage from which one person was loudly debating whether they should walk out or not, and they were saying that they really wanted to go but they didn't fancy being poor, so they may stay as long as they got everything their own way thereafter. Wouldn't the other half be saying that given the lack of commitment, the marriage was over anyway?

You've summed up a lot of how I feel dalziel, I don't want to wake up on19th as a foreigner.

Twitter yesterday, close to 400 retweets for a tweet claiming marr had said he wanted a no vote (he didn't, it is clear if you listen) with tweets pointing out error ignored. It really feels like a mob mentality and regardless of the outcome, I share your worry about the damage done.

DH is Scottish and has lived in England for years, our children are essentially English although I also have lots of Scottish family mainly in Aberdeenshire.
If there is a Yes vote, will DH have to choose a nationality, English or Scottish, he wants to stay British but obviously living in England he doesn't get a vote.

Latest poll shows a dead heat. Its neck and neck.

You hear of lots of people who say they will leave Scotland if its a yes, but have you ever heard anyone say to you that they will move back?

Personally, if there is a yes vote, I will advise everyone I know to move their money out of any bank in Scotland before the actual independence day. I doubt the Scottish banks will be able to offer their customers a credible bank guarantee scheme, post independence. Ditto any other movable investments.

I was born in Scotland, of Scottish parents and grandparents and all my family have lived there. I now live in England and cannot have a vote, and returning just at the moment isn't really an option for employment reasons. Yet a friend who is from Brazil, has lived in Scotland for a few short years and plans to move to England later this year has a vote..... The voting system is very unfair on Scottish citizens who happen not to be living in their country at the moment.

Dalziel - belatedly going back to your point on currency - I agree that in the absence of a currency union (and the UK will be absolutely correct to refuse this and I hope they do for the UK's economy's sake) then scotland needs to have complete fiscal control and the only way it can do that is it's own currency. Of course it will have defaulted on its debts so credits rating and corresponding borrowing rate are not going to be great so the poor people of scotland will be royally fucked. But hey, let's ignore the economy and talk only about how fair and just and social and wonderful the promised land is going to be - because that's all that the Yes campaign seem to want to talk about. If I hear "it's about having faith" one more time....yes, dufus, because faith is what powers a country's economy...right??

Scotland, understandably, hated Thatcher and that has given rise to a huge anti-English feeling which has never diminished. When labour (dominated by the scottish mafia, so fuck knows why we make such a big deal of being controlled by eton toffs) in 1997 did not make everyone in scotland rich beyond their dreams, then the SNP were elected in 2010 (in scotland). Now Salmond can still blame Westminster for everything, and even when he gets independence, he is still going to blame the UK/Westminster and claim that it's because the don't have a currency union, blah blah blah.

Salmond is never, ever going to take responsibility for the shitstorm that is going to follow if it is a Yes. It is always going to be someone else's fault. He is a petulant lying child and, as I've said already, he should be tried for treason and for inciting hatred. King twat.

Interesting that I don't think I've read one poster on this thread supporting independence (apologies if I've missed any). Wouldn't it be interesting to know the voting intentions scots in other parts of the uk would have should they have the vote. If different from those in scotland, why is that? (Media being partisan, less jingoism / antienglish sentiment or what)

feel very sad. it has created a real rift between my mum and dad. dad is obsessed with the yes vote and goes out leafleting every day. he used to be a real campaigner for justice but seems to forgotten there's a whole world out there. previously he would have gone on demos for peace in the middle east etc

I was just thinking the same. TBH I was expecting a cybernat attack!!

It seems to me that there has been some brainwashing going on for the last year or so to those living in Scotland. They've been bombarded with people telling them that its going to be a yes, or selectively reminding them of the negatives of being in the union.

I suspect that journalists may have been got at too, after reading what happened to Andrew Marr when he pointed out to Alex Salmond in an interview that EU membership was not going to be easy. That was in March this year. Afterwards there were lots of complaints of bias, even racism(!), and an SNP minister warned of "consequences"!

If you were a low level, even medium level journalist living and working in Scotland, wouldn't you think carefully before challenging the yes campaign. After all, the SNP will still be in powerful positions even if the vote is no.

Not a lot to add although this thread is really interesting.

On thing though, Santana we're nice in London, promise. It may not be immediately apparent but we are!

I too worry for the future of Scotland and the UK.
I am Scottish , and proud to be, but it seems that I am a traitor and a disgrace to Scotland, my family and anything else the Yes folk can think up ! It is really quite disturbing the way the nationalist fervour is growing. I was in Glasgow at the weekend and a rally held in the centre of town was quite eye opening. Flags , banners, folk singing of anti - English, tales of Scotland's past battles with England etc . The rhetoric, promises of a Utopia, jobs are going to pour into Scotland, more money for everyone, free everything! Never again to be ruled by those English Bs who have raped our beautiful country . In the time it took to pass by the crowd I was nearly believing it !!!!!
It has been reported that the ESPC (main property selling group) have noted that in the last few months more and more people are offering on houses subject to the result, giving themselves the opportunity to pull out if it's Yes. It's also been reported that in the event of a Yes vote house prices could plummet due to the uncertainty about currency, loans, rates etc.
It's becoming a huge worry now . It's not all heart, tartan and haggis anymore, this is real! AND forever!
I appreciate that everyone is entitled to their own opinion but can't help but think that a lot of people are being carried along on 'fairy stories' and promises that are at best exaggerated, at worst lies.

It is wrong that the scots are being fed only one side of the story (or so I am told) and that there is such a mob mentality to such an important issue.

They are thinking emotionally about their sense of self etc - great stuff but at the end of the day this all comes down to money. You can have x, y and z but only if you can pay for it.

Big businesses are actively moving funds and assets out of Scotland.... these are the people who know how to look after their money.

It will be horrendous for the Scots if they vote yes. But as I am in england perhaps it will reduce my taxes...hmmm.... that isn't enough to make a bad decision seem good.

Even though we subsidise the scots so much, I would prefer to keep the UK together, it is safer for all from a military point of view, and because the english will probably end up bailing the scots out in a few years time when it all goes tits up.

Speaking to my friends husband, who is a (no-voting) taxi driver in Scotland, he says everyone who gets in his cab wants to speak about the referendum.

The no-voters don't declare themselves until they've established that they are if safe company.

However, the yes voters come right out and say it, as though they expect that the taxi driver must be a yes voter too. (He keeps quiet and doesn't reveal his opinion). They give their reasons for voting yes, which include

"I'm voting yes so we can do something about all these black immigrants who are coming here and stealing our jobs". (she actually meant Asians and she didn't seem to have noticed that Alex Salmond has said he will encourage immigrants to come).

I'm voting yes, so we can stick it to the English.

I'm voting yes, so that we don't have to have any more Tory governments.

I'm voting yes, because all this talk about being poorer was just to scare us.

I'm voting yes because we are a rich country. We have oil, and its the oil money that's been propping up the UK economy since the 70s.

yes dalziel!

Went through a ridiculous rigmarole of sign language with one old friend in a group of acquaintances yesterday.

I know her well enough to have coped if she'd done the switch quite a few instinctive No voters have done but otoh we suspected the others are Yessers and will have us down as puppy killers if we get into a debate!

Missingmysleep, I think a major factor is that, the way I've seen the numbers explained, Scotland is not subsidised.

I am a Scot but have lived in England for most of my adult life and spent 10 years in Wales. Both my siblings and Scottish cousins have also moved south for work and lifestyle reasons.

Am watching from afar with dismay - there seems to be a state of mass hysteria going on north of the border at the moment. Its like the Emperor's New Clothes.

Santana, if you do have to move to London it may be a blessing in disguise to get out while you can. There are loads of expat Scots here anyway, at least 3 of the mums in DS2s class were Scottish!

In my experience, Scotland never really came to terms with the Thatcher years. No one was voting for the Tories in Scotland in the 80s but we had three terms of a Thatcher govt. I have to say, as a Scot myself, we are good at keeping grudges!

Well other than all the areas that had Tory MPs right through Maggie's term... I grew up in Tayside North, and we had Bill Walker as MP right through to the 1997 election, so actually, plenty of Scots did vote Tory, until Tony Blair came along and swept us all in his wake. I do like the comparisons between Blair and Salmond, it is a similar PR exercise, probably with similar (or worse) consequences...

I am a Scot who moved to London 13 years ago, and have married a lovely Englishman (my aunt was a little concerned till she met him - that aunt is voting yes!) and had two lovely children down here. I suspect that I'll live in London till I retire, as DH's parents are here, and jobs are here. That does not stop me from being a proud Scot! (the kids have been told that they support Scotland in the rugby, I care less about football!)

The heart says "Yes, go Scotland! The head says "don't be a complete muppet, you are being led by a bunch of liars; even if you think you will have more control over your political future, you will have to deal with the consequences into your grandchildren's lives!".

The UK will have to let anyone Scottish living down here keep their British citizenship (human rights issues), so actually we won't become foreigners down here overnight, we will be British and Scottish from day one. We will probably be in a better situation than Scots living up there...

What worries me more is what Scotland will become if the referendum result is no. The sheer vitriol that has come out of the campaign shows that the violent underbelly is just bubbling slightly under the surface, and has so much potential to rise up if they don't get their way. I don't really know how the country can recover from this...