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AIBU?

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IndyRef 7

999 replies

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 08/09/2014 09:33

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OP posts:
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StatisticallyChallenged · 08/09/2014 23:02

Business for Scotland is not an unbiased source. Yes, it's expensive. I'm not disputing that. But claiming that "Scotland is funding it" is somewhat spurious when we're already getting back more than we put in due to the huge deficit.

Luckytwo · 08/09/2014 23:02

Surely though that's cake and eat it mentality, statistically challenged. There's already talk of a yes vote meaning not being able to vote in the 2015 general election, so why would a scottish person be able to move lock stock and barrel to England ?
I don't think that's right.
I think people will have to wait out 18 months of uncertain negotiation to discover what their rights are ref moving out. Potentially temporary expiring rights but not long term. Then there will be qualifying depending on how entry to the eu goes.
It will not be a right at that stage. Or sorry, it most certainly shouldn't be.

ChelsyHandy · 08/09/2014 23:04

That, amongst many other things, are something that I would have expect to be laid out clearly in schedules to the White Paper LuckyTwo.

ChelsyHandy · 08/09/2014 23:05

Its not really "Business For Scotland", its "200 Small to Medium Sized Businesses for Scotland". Its a misleading name for a small group.

StatisticallyChallenged · 08/09/2014 23:07

That wasn't the situation re Ireland ChelsyHandy. Many people have dual citizenship and I think this would be the case. I don't think there is a mechanism that would allow citizenship to be stripped.

Can't access FT prettybird, will dig later, thanks. We're still earning way more than the deficit so although their might be Barnett issues (not having read it) I think using an infrastructure project as a reason to vote Yes is a bit weak.

StatisticallyChallenged · 08/09/2014 23:14

LuckyTwo I'm a no voter, so no cake and eat it from me.

This is directly from the government "Current British nationality law – the British Nationality Act 1981 - does not prevent British citizens from holding dual/multiple nationalities.

Assuming that Scottish nationality law also allowed for dual citizenship, British citizens who became eligible for Scottish citizenship could, in theory, become dual Scottish/British citizens.

However, it is possible that the UK Government would decide to impose some qualifying restrictions on who could continue to claim British citizenship – for example, by requiring a historical or ongoing connection to the rest of the UK, or requiring people to actively choose to retain their British citizenship. This would have some similarities with the approach taken in 1949 towards citizens of Eire after the Republic of Ireland was established."

As far as I know Irish people did not have their citizenship of UK removed. It was later generations.

TeamScotland · 08/09/2014 23:14

Sigh, Scotland is funding a share of it. Even if it comes in on budget unlikely we're looking at 5 billion. Yawn, night, night.

StatisticallyChallenged · 08/09/2014 23:17
chocoluvva · 08/09/2014 23:19

machair - baked potatoes aren't too bad if you eat the skin (fibre counteracting some of the high GI of the flesh)

The NHS presumably doesn't recommend foodstuffs manufactured by itself to make profits from patients?

Thong
weatherall complained that Alistair Darling didn't come up with any Labour policies that would help Scotland create more jobs -during the second AD/AS televised debate when asked by AS.

A member of the public asked Nic Sturge what policies the SNP would try to put in place to create more jobs after a yes vote. NS said that corporation taxes would be lowered to make Scotland more competitive. And that there would be free childcare which would help women get back into work. She had no other answers.
My point is that SNP has no useful ideas of ways to create more work in Scotland.

prettybird · 08/09/2014 23:21

I wasn't using it as argument statistically - it was just you asked if there were any impartial sources (or something like that). I haven't had a chance to read all the recent posts - it moves so quickly Grin

I find it sad that there appears to have been a lack of wholistic regional economic development (and on this occasion I include Scotland! Wink) from Westminster. If there were, HS2 would be built (as its chairman, iirc, would be built from the North to the South as otherwise it'll just intensify the black hole magnet effect of London Sad

More importantly for Westminster, it might have (along with a proper federal approach akin to Devomax ) neutralised the momentum of the independence argument.

Luckytwo · 08/09/2014 23:21

It's interesting. Many people have dual citizenship with Ireland nowadays, I don't think that's always been the case. Also passports in Ireland are cheaper than here -a big draw. (Certainly they were some years ago, I could be wrong now).
I wouldn't have though dual citizenship though would be a dead cert, in fact potentially an outright no in the current climate.
I only ask as I assume as a scot in England I would have to apply for scottish nationality. A total anathema to me, I hasten to add. I didn't even get to decide I had emigrated but then hey ho apparently I don't count.
The sooner this is over with the better.

StatisticallyChallenged · 08/09/2014 23:27

Ah fair enough Prettybird, sorry! I agree we need discussion about regional management and development though, definitely.

LuckyTwo, I'm not sure there is much of a mechanism to strip citizenship from a huge number of people. I'm British. I was born in Britain.

Roonerspism · 08/09/2014 23:28

Anyone else watch news night?

"Economic suicide" I think was the term quoted by the independent economist.

The "Belarus" of the western world.

To the undecideds - it's down to you now. It is literally resting on your shoulders.

OOAOML · 08/09/2014 23:30

I saw a letter posted somewhere about Barnett consequential from HS2 trying to think where though

StatisticallyChallenged · 08/09/2014 23:43

The Barnett consequentials issue seems to be hard to get to the bottom of but Danny Alexander said "Barnett consequentials for High Speed 2 for years beyond 2015-16 will be determined at the next spending review."

OOAOML · 08/09/2014 23:45

Thanks Stats I have found articles about consequentials for Wales and Northern Ireland, but if that's the timescale then Scotland's might potentially be a bit more complex.

ChelsyHandy · 08/09/2014 23:46

Scotland was initially compared by the experienced economist with "Slovakia". As in the rest of the world would be asking why on earth a prosperous, wealthy country like Scotland in a successful union countries in other parts of the world could only dream of was trying to turn itself into a country like Slovakia. And then there were veiled digs from the other guy about the economist being based at Harvard, and he recalled a paper the other had previously written comparing Scotland to Belarus, trying to embarrass him. It didn't work, and the economist stood by his previous prediction of Scotland turning into Belarus (or a country like Belarus).

oddcommentator · 09/09/2014 00:10

oooh this will possibly out me

I have met, worked with, lobbied and debated with over the past couple of years politicians from the HoL, HoC and Holyrood on all sides of the political spectrum. Generally - i would say the HoL are by and far the canniest operators at a political level i have ever met. Really - Francis Urqhart / Kevin Spacey wouldn't stand a chance. By and large every single one i have dealt with at committee and APPG level has been furiously capable and on top of their brief. As long as there isnt a TV camera in the room - then the preening starts.

I have seen all of the MPs suspend a discussion mid sentence for the division bell with "an excuse me - we must vote, democracy is important" and pick the discussion up exactly where it left off 5 mins later.

Many of the ministers i have worked with and senior civil servants have similarly been solid public servants. Every single one of them by and large really believe they are doing what is right for the UK. This is why you dont hear about them on the news. They just bloody get on with the job of running the country. Most of the work is done at committee level and there is non of the noise you see at PMQ - which is playing to the gallery on both sides. I have personally witnessed and been party to the discussions and negotiations with the drafting and development of contentious new laws. And by and large -the MPs got on with it and the party political hat was set aside apart from what could only be called mild banter and jocular prodding. This is not peculiar to any political party - all the major parties got on with the job of drafting and agreeing legislation.

When doing similar in Holyrood the same could be said of the opposition parties i worked with on drafting of bills. Except for the MSPs I met from the SNP. I have never come across such self serving, short sighted venal and divisive policy, not politics - but policy. When drafting a new law - hang the consequences, hang the electorate - but lets use this as vehicle to get one over the chap across the chamber. So people suffer in the street? - as the MSP i met said "fuck-em they are sheep - they will vote for me what ever". I must say that as well they civil servants I met were also incredibly dependent on political patronage - they amount of independence was palpably less than at WM.

So it is a truism, that people don't get the government you need, you don't get the government you want, you get the government you deserve. If Scotland votes yes, the 52 MPs will immediately lose their voice at Westminster - no one will listen. And the discussion will be awfully brief and awfully one sided. Because come what may, if yes is voted - I don't see the SNP holding a general election - you see they will have power and they will claim an electoral mandate and by god you will have the government you deserve.

Don't listen to me, don't listen to Westminster - listen to the world leaders, the other economists. To the independent think tanks, to the other countries that went down this route in a tidal wave - of it will be all right. To those that think that LTB is the answer to an argument over the dd's boyfriend - is pulling apart your marriage the answer? The grass looks greener - for sure - but after the party is over, after you have told a 2.5tn economy, who is your largest trading partner by an order of magnitude to fuck off to the far side of fuck and then say - would you pay our pensions please? What do you think realistically will happen.

You economy will still be run by London - AS and NC has stated that it is their preferred choice. Except the 52 mps who had a really loud voice will be gone. So your economy will be entirely at the mercy of a parliament that you have told to fuck off and is now concerned as much with its relations with Belgium as you.

The EU will be a distant pipedream as well as all the benefits it brings.

You will have the same head of state.

You will still have many of the same institutions apparently.

So what will have changed? really..... not much but then everything. You wont be freer, but then you were never going to be really. You won't be in a fairer country - that we know is just a fairy story. You wont be richer, the trams look nice. you wont be more democratic. You wont have better quality institutions. You certainly will have reduced your voice that you need for international negotiations, and you will be poorer.

So often change seems shiny, new, exciting, radical. Sticking it to the man. yeah.

You will get the government you deserve.

Look at them - and ask the question - do i deserve this?

StatisticallyChallenged · 09/09/2014 00:13

Very interesting post oddcommentator, thank you for sharing that Thanks

oddcommentator · 09/09/2014 00:14

Red wine = loquacity

oddcommentator · 09/09/2014 00:17

apols - also

HoC - House of Commons
HoL - House of Lords

HoL has nicer tea and smarter offices.

OOAOML · 09/09/2014 00:17

Thanks for your insight odd.

oddcommentator · 09/09/2014 00:19

christ - it is the red wine - it is Nicola Sturgeon - not NC - bleurgh. more wine

Kathderoet · 09/09/2014 01:27

I am getting nervous now that we are going to get a yes vote. Salmond has run a campaign of lies, I can't believe people are being swept along with this, so many unanswered questions. I've had an SNP council, attended their meetings, it was like dealing with a bunch of thugs. I'm sure if we get an independent Scotland this bunch of idiots will be voted in and God help us. Btw I'm a no voter!

Kathderoet · 09/09/2014 01:32

Just read back nice post oddcommentator, wish everyone in Scotland was made to read it. Unfortunately they're all wearing blinkers and just won't see what's ahead.