to object to the idea of "keeping children innocent."

[cailindana]

I have seen on a few threads here and in rl the idea that by not telling children about sex, rape, HIV etc that you are keeping them "innocent."

What is the opposite of innocent?
Was I the opposite of innocent because I knew about rape when I was 6, because I was raped?

IMO the notion of keeping children innocent by keeping them in the dark about sex is a paedophile's dream. How could I tell anyone about what happened to me when I had no words to explain it?

It's not innocence, it's ignorance. There is absolutely nothing wrong or dirty or shameful about sex and there is no reason children shouldn't know about it. They'll know plenty about it from their peers anyway, much of it incorrect. Also, unfortunately, they need to know (IN AN AGE APPROPRIATE WAY - I shout this before I'm asked whether children should watch porn) about the darker side of sex and the ways in which people might hurt them.

A natural normal curiosity about their own bodies and the way they work and will change should not be met with embarrassment and lies, as that will only lead children to seek their information elsewhere, possibly from dangerous sources.

AIBU?

YABU.

This is a TAAT.

And what was being objected to by some posters on the other thread was the a book for pupils 10+ being in the general classroom selection for children younger than that.

Such subjects need to be covered in an age-appropriate way, not using materials for middle/secondary schools in a primary.

No it is not a TAAT. It is a thread about an idea brought up in another thread. I am not arguing about that book at all. I am talking about knowing about sex.

for you OP as no 6 year old should experience what you do. If it matters, I was seriously sexually abused as a child, my first experience at age 6.

I think innocence as such is a bit of a red herring and I think sex can be taught in an age appropriate way.

However, more than anything it's about helping children to know that if they feel uncomfortable about an action done to them by someone else that it is okay to tell, no secrets. Some secrets shouldn't be kept etc.

I have had years and years of counselling to help me come to terms with what happened to me as a child. Hope you have had support too.

I agree - ignorance is often equated to ignorance. When your wee knowing the basics of sex is the same as knowing that it only snows in winter, it is just another thing to know, and is not a loss of innocence. Just the same as vulva is just another body part like a finger.

I know this is a TAAT, but this discussion is better separated so OP of other thread doesnrt feel criticised.

I have Grateful, thanks. Sorry it happened to you too .

Ignorance often equated to innocence

FWIW, I think that book was inappropriate as it was likely children would read it on their own without adult guidance. IMO the content wasn't inappropriate but the context was.

On balance YANBU.

I subscribe to knowledge is power, but I try and give my children the knowledge appropriate to their age and understanding. The Rotherham sex abuse news has been everywhere. I've tried to explain it along the lines of adults acted inappropriately with children and took control of their bodies from them. I don't want to get into the nitty gritty of it with them, but I feel it's important they know they have the right to control their own bodies.

Secrecy, shame, misinformation and ignorance are to be avoided I think.

My daughter was sexually abused by her uncle at the age of three last year - the most she "knew" about sex was that your private parts are private, if anyone touches you there shout no and tell mummy immediately. I think if we keep children "innocent" then a lot that happens won't be reported as children won't know it's wrong.

I whole heartedly agree that children should be educated in an age appropriate way, there is no sense or good reason for keeping them in the dark. Children will still be innocent, just wiser and hopefully better protected to know what to do if something does happen

There's innocence and then there's ignorance. Children don't need to be kept ignorant of sex, private body parts, how children come into the world etc but they should be shielded from some of the thornier aspects of these issues, in my view. There is only so much a young child can process cognitively so complex issues should be conveyed to them in a way they can cope with.

That's precisely why sexualising a child is abuse because a child cannot process or consent to sexual experiences the way an adult can.

thinking of input I would like to make, but in meantime to cailindana and GratefulHead.

I'm so sorry that happened to your daughter pretty. How are things for her now? Was her uncle prosecuted?

Liz, what "thornier" aspects should they be shielded from?

I think it has to do with the fact that some parents find it difficult to talk about/deal with certain things.

For example, masturbation isn't unusual in children. But a lot of parents I know will shush them, tell them it's wrong rather than talk to the children about it because the parents find it embarrassing.

I agree about the embarrassment username, but IMO it's such a lame excuse. Paedophiles thrive on secrecy, and if a child senses that a subject is taboo and embarrassing then they will be afraid to talk about it (as I was with my parents) and so it will continue. The best and most effective way to protect a child is to ensure that if something does happen they will feel free to speak up.

She's getting better, for a long time she was angry and violent, withdrawn and turned into a shell of herself. Recently she's started working with the Ann Marie foundation (an amazing group who will even help adult survivors of child abuse) and she's doing well now. He was charged but the case was dropped this Feb as although the examination showed signs of her being abused she became so hysterical whenever they tried to get a video statement that the PF decided there wasn't enough evidence to prosecute I live in hope that this was enough to deter him from harming another child though

Oh I'm so sorry to hear that pretty. FWIW I think she has an excellent chance of recovery given that you are so on the ball and willing to stand up for her. Abuse is awful and damaging but it can be healed hugely by support and love and care. She will remember how much you did for her and she will appreciate it.

But they can feel free to speak up without knowing about sex or thinking its an embarrassment.

for instance if people kissed on tv my mum would dive to the tv and shield it or turn it off and make a huge song and dance about it.

she was letting me know it was taboo and embarrassing.

thats not the same, as creating as open a relationship as possible, talking about the PANTS rule, private, no means no and so on, and not freaking out when people kiss on tv.

they are not mutually exclusive.

on another thread people have spoken about always being as open as can with child, never undermining their choices, and when they say no respect it, be open about no secrets even over sweets granny is giving....never secrets except when mummy is making daddy a card. say this in front of other family and friends too.

I agree that the information about privacy etc can be given separately to information about sex, but is there a reason why sex should be left out of it Born?

Could I ask, genuinely, what an age appropriate way about such issues would actually be?

I have a 6 and 7 year old. I always said that I would field any questions honestly and factually and age sensitively... but there have been NO questions, at all. Do I sit them down and tell them we are going to talk about sex etc... that seems far too formal/making an issue of it.

I don't agree that children should not be told anything about sex, no - but there is a middle way. My two oldest children (7 and 5) know what sex is, the physical mechanics of it and how babies are made and born. They know that private parts are private, just theirs, and that nobody should touch them there without their consent. They also, not necessarily in relation to sex, know that nobody should ask them to keep a secret from Mummy and Daddy and that secrets like that are wrong.

But they don't know about the issues raised in the book you mention. Because they are too young to have a discussion about it or have an emotional understanding of the issues involved. I think that exposing children to too much information - before they are mature enough to understand it, when that information is explicit or traumatic - could be abusive in itself and just as damaging as too little information. It has to be age appropriate and appropriate to the maturity of the individual child.

My DS is 3 and he knows that babies grow in a mummy's tummy and come out of her vagina. He also knows about privacy and about telling mummy and daddy if anyone does anything he's not happy with.
All this has been conveyed in chats. So he said "I have a baby" and I said "where did your baby come from?" and he said "I don't know" so I explained about mummies etc. The privacy stuff I brought up myself at bathtime as I think it's too important to leave to chance.

With your two, Baby, I'd bring out the baby photos and have a nice evening looking back over them. If you have any photos of you being pregnant I'd say "Here's you in mummy's tummy" and see if they ask how they got there and how they got out. If they don't bring it up, then say "do you know how babies are made?" to see what they know already (which might be a lot more than you think!) and start from there. It doesn't have to be formal, and if they seem to be losing interest it's fine just to leave it, but it's good to get the conversation started and let them know it's an ok subject to talk about.

YABU as this is a TAAT

You're also U because IMO there is nothing wrong with keeping children in a bubble of innocence and age appropriate information

I already explained it is not a TAAT but report it if you want to Ididn't.

Also I already said information should be age appropriate. I don't know what a "bubble of innocence" but if it can actually physically protect children from the world, I'd like to buy one please.

I'm so sorry cailin

I'm not sure about the TAAT. But I try to keep my children "innocent" in that I don't expose them to over sexualised clothing, toys, television.

They are very young but understand proper names of body parts a sort of idea of how mommy got pregnant with little brother and their bodies are theirs and no one can touch them unless they want them to. I don't think educating them negates "innocence". I think calling them "sexy" or thinking it's cute/funny when girls do suggestive dancing that they've learned form music videos is wrong that sort of thing.

So depends on the definition of innocence I guess? I don't think sex ed means innocence lost

Bubble of enjoying cycling up and down the road with their friends without a care in the world, playing in the park, reading child friendly fiction

I don't want my DC growing up like my cousins in a rough part of London. I like that they don't know much slang or dress inappropriately and speak properly, and don't talk about sex and violence.

That there isn't yet peer pressure to have sex or smoke or drink because all they want to do is play at the park

I like my child to be a child and don't feel there is anything wrong with that