to object to the idea of "keeping children innocent."

[cailindana]

I have seen on a few threads here and in rl the idea that by not telling children about sex, rape, HIV etc that you are keeping them "innocent."

What is the opposite of innocent?
Was I the opposite of innocent because I knew about rape when I was 6, because I was raped?

IMO the notion of keeping children innocent by keeping them in the dark about sex is a paedophile's dream. How could I tell anyone about what happened to me when I had no words to explain it?

It's not innocence, it's ignorance. There is absolutely nothing wrong or dirty or shameful about sex and there is no reason children shouldn't know about it. They'll know plenty about it from their peers anyway, much of it incorrect. Also, unfortunately, they need to know (IN AN AGE APPROPRIATE WAY - I shout this before I'm asked whether children should watch porn) about the darker side of sex and the ways in which people might hurt them.

A natural normal curiosity about their own bodies and the way they work and will change should not be met with embarrassment and lies, as that will only lead children to seek their information elsewhere, possibly from dangerous sources.

AIBU?

You're very presumptuous Cali, can you not accept that that may not always be the case?

They might not know about sex Ididn't but they'll have some sort of theory about where babies come from, which might be close to the truth or totally off the wall. They'll have a theory because they'll have seen babies, talked about it at school, etc.
What I want to know is, why shouldn't they know about it?

Am I really Molly? Nope. I would be extremely surprised to find any six year old or older who does not have some sort of theory about where babies come from.

Because they might not want to know.

Some children are happy in their own little world where the tooth fairy and Santa exist and babies come from who knows where their heads tell them.

I honestly don't get the connection between tooth fairies and sex. It is properly weird.

Well yes, sorry.

As a matter of fact DS is currently under assessment for AS. One of the traits of his lovely personality is talking about everything. :o

If he had heard any 'theories' he wouldn't hesitate to ask me, his father, teacher, grandparents about it very bluntly.

The NSPCC has launched the ChildLine school service that goes into visit yrs 5&6 at school. They are age-appropriate assemblies and workshops that talk about what's ok, what's not and how to get help.

They want to go into every primary school twice a year! The sessions are all lead by trained volunteers (mostly ex-social workers, teachers, counsellors etc).

They just need funding and volunteers to make it happen! I really hope my kids have a visit!

I honestly did not know about sex at primary school age and wasn't really interested. My dd 7 has ASD and dev delays, she asked where she came from and told her in an appropriate way which she could understand. It is the truth but in a very basic way.

I don't think she would have the understanding if she was inappropriately touched, she wouldent grasp it or understand

Depends. You can tell them about good touch, bad touch at a young age. The problem is, emotionally children won't understand what rape is. All they need to know (up to a certain point) is that their body is theirs and they need to tell if someone makes them uncomfortable.

But the biggest thing you can do is not make sex talk taboo. That seems to be what stops children from telling. You can tell them that they need to tell you, but if you send the message that sex is shameful, they may not.

Not as weird as wanting to tell your child about things children shouldn't know about

They shouldn't know about sex? Why?

My 6 year old is fascinated by birth, she has seen the births on OBEM and watches in awe telling me how beautiful it all is - even through the screaming etc she is glued - she wants to be a midwife. I asked her where she thought the baby came from in my tummy when I was pregnant with DC 3 and DC 4 - she said 'you wanted one' yes, but how do you think it got there.. 'you wanted one' and then started yammering on about C-sections or pushing the baby out.. Do I really have such bizarre DC that are still totally clueless at 6 & 7?

I think also that children need to know that they can tell a trusted adult and not to be afraid if somebody hurts them or does something to them that they don't like. Yes it does help if they know the names of their private areas.

To tell a trusted adult doh sorry

No Baby, you don't.

It would be bizarre for you to force the subject on them.

Cailindana, I'm sorry that happened to you.

We speak very openly about sex in this house, my DCs have known from a young age that mummies and daddies contribute to making a baby (and roughly how), that they grow in mummies' tummies and come out their vaginas. They have the correct names for parts of the body and use them, and they have all questions answered as well as I can. We have some hilarious conversations!

Furthermore, they are not allowed have secrets from Mummy and Daddy (and for reasons I won't go in to here, I've had reason to be glad about that.) They know that it is their right to refuse physical contact that makes them uncomfortable. That includes not having to hug Auntie Margaret or whoever just because she asks.

So far, so good. They both ask questions openly and freely and AFAIK confide in me. I'd prefer they saw nudity rather than violence on tv, TBH. We also take them to funerals and let them see the deceased in the coffin if it's appropriate.

However, I was verbally attacked by a group of friends when we discussed this recently. I was "taking away their innocence", and it was "disgusting". I tried to point out that we can't always control the information DCs get. They will see and hear things through TV, internet, people and plain old life experience. I just hope they'll have the tools to process life and trust me and DH enough to help.

Funnily enough, one of said friends approached me since to borrow a book to talk to her 9-year-old (I can't imagine how awkward it would be to never have raised the subject with the child before this!) And she still had the cheek to raise eyebrows when she realised the book talked about masturbation. I fervently hope my DCs discover that sex is pleasurable when the time comes.

Oh, and mine both believe in FC and the tooth fairy as well as knowing that grown ups have sex...

I know I was facetious earlier but I genuinely don't get the connection between believing in Santa and the tooth fairy and not knowing about sex. Can someone explain it?

I don't think 'innocence' is a useful concept here, but I can see the importance of handling issues in an age appropriate way and not overloading younger children with difficult issues. Mercifully I've no experience of sexual abuse, but I grew up seeing my stepfather abuse my mother physically and emotionally. I don't want my DCs carrying the weight of the world on their shoulders in the way I did. Nodding back to the thread the OP refers to, I had zero interest in 'gritty' children's literature as a child - I didn't need a book to tell me what it was like living on a shitty council estate with an alcoholic mother and a violent father. I just wanted to read 'escapist' stuff like Narnia and Enid Blyton. It was great to escape off into a world of talking lions and 'midnight feasts' .

I totally disagree with wait till they ask, mine are 8 and 10 and have never shown the lightest bit of interest in the differences in our bodies or where babies come from etc, it has all had to be initiated by me. They've listened but still have not shown a great deal of interest - we have talked about bodily changes, privacy, consent, sex, secrecy but will go into more depth as they get older. I have no idea what if anything they have picked up at school DS (10) has AS and is quite a loner, I don't think he chats much with other children at all (he struggles with any prolonged conversation).

As for innocence, yes I do keep them away from suggestive pop videos and lyrics, revealing clothes. They don't yet need to know graphic details of what some people choose to do to others against their will, they don't need to know about STDs, but we will cover those in time. So, I suppose I keep them innocent, but to an age appropriate manner, always moving forward. As indeed we all are, I read or see things sometimes that shock and horrify me, that I would never have thought possible, so in that sense I am still in my 40s losing my innocence. It really isn't the best choice of word in this context, with it's alternative meaning of not guilty. You aren't innocent or not innocent, it's a spectrum of knowledge and experience.

DD was begging for me to show her a video of a birth on youtube (which I can reassure you I didn't agree to!).

Also off topic, but when I was due to deliver I had planned a home birth so I wanted to prepare my dc, and I searched youtube for "quiet home birth" (nothing that was going to terrify anyone ). But anyway my kids loved watching babies being born in to pools. (I checked them first myself for noise/gore obviously) It wasn't what I ended up doing myself but they both have a very good idea and understanding of how babies actually get out and my daughter (3) always asks to see "babies coming out of tummies".

Yabu what happened to you as a child was awful but children do not need to know about sex.
The ncpcc pants rule is enough.
My dd is nearly ten she doesn't know yet, I will talk to her quite soon but no way would I have talked to her about sex age six!

We are a family of doctors os always know everything always just about and at a younger age than most. I remember my parents having a talk about menstruation to my sister and I and we rushed straight off and told our brother (5) about it - he's now a doctor himself. I used the adult section of the public library when I was ten as I was bright. Today children have the internet. Also plenty of children are very sexual and masturbate - it can be a huge pleasure in their lives but current UK group think is to pretend children are not sexual which is a ridiculous return to the Victorian age really but there we have it.

I would lower the age of consent to 14 but I doubt anyone on mumsnet would support that even though that criminalises many post puberty children with partners their own age who have sex every week.