to object to the idea of "keeping children innocent."

[cailindana]

I have seen on a few threads here and in rl the idea that by not telling children about sex, rape, HIV etc that you are keeping them "innocent."

What is the opposite of innocent?
Was I the opposite of innocent because I knew about rape when I was 6, because I was raped?

IMO the notion of keeping children innocent by keeping them in the dark about sex is a paedophile's dream. How could I tell anyone about what happened to me when I had no words to explain it?

It's not innocence, it's ignorance. There is absolutely nothing wrong or dirty or shameful about sex and there is no reason children shouldn't know about it. They'll know plenty about it from their peers anyway, much of it incorrect. Also, unfortunately, they need to know (IN AN AGE APPROPRIATE WAY - I shout this before I'm asked whether children should watch porn) about the darker side of sex and the ways in which people might hurt them.

A natural normal curiosity about their own bodies and the way they work and will change should not be met with embarrassment and lies, as that will only lead children to seek their information elsewhere, possibly from dangerous sources.

AIBU?

Just ignore bellarations Weasel, people like that are best avoided.

The grandmother of a friend of mine had a childhood friend who killed herself when her periods started as she thought she was dying. As a result the grandmother told her own daughter about periods when she was young and told her to tell all of her friends straight away. You can imagine that caused a bit of a hoo-ha back in 1965 but the grandmother's attitude was that if her daughter telling everyone stopped one girl from being in fear then it was worth it. Equally the daughter told her daughter (my friend) to do the same thing and so my friend told me when I was about 10. It was a bloody good thing she did because I'm pretty sure my mother had no intention of telling me.

No, I don't think 6 year olds need to know about rape and HIV.

They need to know they can tell their parents anything and that no matter what anyone else tells them, nothing bad will happen if they tell their Mum & Dad.

They need to understand the difference between 'secret' and 'surprise'.

They need to know that they have the right not to have people touch them in ways that they don't want them to - this doesn't mean they need to know about rape or abuse, HIV, anal sex or a whole host of other things.

Knowing about sex, where babies come from, masturbation etc is an entirely different thing to knowing about rape & porn. In the same way that knowing granny died when she was very old is different to knowing that the child down the road just killed themselves.

I explain things as they need to know (ie I had to explain about the child down the road) but I don't go out of my way to explain about horrible things (ie I would not randomly tell them about suicide/rape).

I totally agree latte, young children do not need to know about this, but need to know that they can tell trusted adults (parents, teacher, Cub leader etc) if they are being touched inappropriately or hurt. They need to know biological names for their private areas.

No, I don't think 6 year olds need to know about rape and HIV.

Some 6 year olds do, unfortunately, know more about those than most adults so are denied the luxury of knowing.

But I'm not sure who suggested these are appropriate topics to delve into with six year olds?

i know apocolypse because they are experiencing it themselves ,

apocalypse

It is incredibly sad that some 6 year olds know about rape and HIV and other awful things :(

However, I don't think telling all 6 year olds about them is the answer. Telling all 6 year olds about them, wont stop it happening. If it did, then I would be all for telling them, but it wont, so I don't see why you would.

apoc CailingDana did in her OP.

Latte, I disagree. Because paedophiles are so cunning and secretive the only way you are ever going to know that they have hurt your child is if your child tells you themselves. In order to be able to do that they have to know what has happened and how to talk about it. IMO unless you keep your child with you day and night until they're 16 the one and only way to protect them is to arm them with knowledge. That way they can look out for themselves.

IME paedophiles target "innocent" children - ones they know can't or won't tell because no one has opened that conversation with them.

I know I mentioned HIV in the OP but actually I think that's a non-issue really. HIV is simply a disease. There's no reason to keep it a secret anymore than you'd keep flu or cancer a secret.

It's not about keeping HIV a secret. Why would I tell a 6 year old about HIV, cancer, suicide or anything else like that until it impacted on their lives somehow? What is the advantage?

My dd knows exactly what sex is...she's 6. A friend told her and I confirmed what she already knew. I'd rather that than the shameful secrecy that I grew up with.

As a result of my openness she is very matter of fact about it and thinks it's hilarious rather than disgusting as I did.

Then my parents presented me with the Usbourne facts of life age 7 after I caught them at it. No discussion ... Pure silence and horror!

I disagree that 6 year olds need to be told about rape.

Knowing that no-one is allowed to touch them in a way that makes them uncomfortable or scared or hurts them and that they can tell that person #NOOOOOOO~ and if that person doesn't stop, they can run away or hurt them or anything else and that they need to tell their Mum or Dad and they wont be in any trouble, is all they need to know.
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I only mentioned HIV in the OP as it was brought up in the other thread as being connected to "innocence" - as though, by knowing about HIV a child would lose their innocence. There's no particular reason to bring it up unless the child is interested in it for some reason or they are affected by it in some way. My point was, there was no reason to hide it or to stop a child reading about it if it came up in a book.

My main objection was the idea of "innocence" and that by simply mentioning these things you were corrupting a child.

My dd has seen me change a tampon. Not a biggie . It wasn't intentional but I'm glad she knows that the blood is normal and so are tampons.

I would not latte, I would not tell dc about disease, unless it impacts on them or us as a family ie. granny has Cancer, or Cousin Tom has MS and what they are.

Well, as I said, the only reason I told ds about HIV was because there was lots of playground talk about AIDS at his school. If you are confident that no-one your child has anything to do with will say anything to them about it ever, then yes it's not necessary, but ime that is unlikely.

OP this may have been said already as not got through the thread, but your personal experiences are colouring your view.

I can understand and relate to what happened to you, I wont say anymore as not really something I like to talk about.

My experiences certainly influence how I think about the world. But I don't think my children need to know stuff like rape.

What I am teaching them is that they have control over their bodies, that their private parts are just that - private. When getting them dressed etc I will ask their permission, I have told them that if they say stop to something that the other person should stop - if they don't then they tell me or DH (this circle of adults will widen as they get older obviously)! I am respectful of their bodies and use the proper names for their body parts.

I would die if they were abused and would blame myself but given that they're more likely to not be abused, I'm not going to lay it all out for them at their young ages.

If they ask, tell.

Not sure how old my daughter was when she asked how babies were made - might have been two or three? I was a breastfeeding counsellor in those days, she had seen cross-section diagrams in my books and asked later, to clarify her understanding. After a brief discussion, her suggestion 'they make a bridge with their bottoms' for the daddy seed to get to the mummy seed seemed about right.

At four, and here I am sure of her age, she asked what rape was. She had seen on the news that a four year old had been raped. I told her that when people are forced to do what mummies and daddies do to make babies, that isn't allowed and it is called rape.

Not sure how old she was, but definitely in primary school, when she asked why there are flavoured condoms. I told her the ordinary ones taste terrible. No detail, but enough information for her active mind to work upon.

All these issues she raised herself and we dealt with in age-appropriate ways.

I am far more concerned about things which were done in school when I was teaching. For example, Victim Support showing horrific accounts of abuse to Year 7s, and following up with group tasks including 'imagine what it feels like to be raped'. And the 'sex survey' put out by a university, annually, for Year 9s, where questions included 'have you taken part in anal sex', leading to staff having to explain activities which pupils had never previously heard of.

So no, don't 'keep them innocent', don't hide things from them. But don't rub their noses in it, either.