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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to object to the idea of "keeping children innocent."

144 replies

cailindana · 06/09/2014 15:03

I have seen on a few threads here and in rl the idea that by not telling children about sex, rape, HIV etc that you are keeping them "innocent."

What is the opposite of innocent?
Was I the opposite of innocent because I knew about rape when I was 6, because I was raped?

IMO the notion of keeping children innocent by keeping them in the dark about sex is a paedophile's dream. How could I tell anyone about what happened to me when I had no words to explain it?

It's not innocence, it's ignorance. There is absolutely nothing wrong or dirty or shameful about sex and there is no reason children shouldn't know about it. They'll know plenty about it from their peers anyway, much of it incorrect. Also, unfortunately, they need to know (IN AN AGE APPROPRIATE WAY - I shout this before I'm asked whether children should watch porn) about the darker side of sex and the ways in which people might hurt them.

A natural normal curiosity about their own bodies and the way they work and will change should not be met with embarrassment and lies, as that will only lead children to seek their information elsewhere, possibly from dangerous sources.

AIBU?

OP posts:
Original poster
cailindana · 06/09/2014 16:09

I am not discussing the book here littlejohn. This thread is not about that book. This thread is about what is said in the OP.

OP posts:
Iwasinamandbunit · 06/09/2014 16:10

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Original poster
cailindana · 06/09/2014 16:11

I didn't mention slag or inappropriate dress Ididn't. Nor did I mention smoking or drinking. Knowing about sex doesn't mean you automatically have it, or you stop cycling Confused.

Do you think I wasn't a child because I knew about sex and rape?

OP posts:
Original poster
cailindana · 06/09/2014 16:11

slang - unfortunate typo.

OP posts:
Ididntseeitsoitdidnthappen · 06/09/2014 16:12

I should stress I have discussed body awareness, they know how babies are made, they know their private areas belong to them and only them, they have also been told about periods because my family usually start young (I was 10).

Original poster
cailindana · 06/09/2014 16:12

I'm in a similar boat, Iwas - my mother's reaction (ie, get over it, shut up) was worse in many ways than the abuse.

Sorry you went through it too Flowers.

OP posts:
Original poster
cailindana · 06/09/2014 16:13

I'm not sure what you're arguing against then Ididn't?

OP posts:
morethanpotatoprints · 06/09/2014 16:14

YABU. So sorry for what you went through as a child.
Do you think being able to put it into words would have lessened the horror?
Or do you think in telling children about their bodies being private and giving them a bit less of the aids, hiv etc would have been enough.
I don't know how old you are, but we weren't really told anything about such stuff because aids/hiv didn't exist for a start.
We learned about stranger danger as grew up in memory of the moors murders.

I think that rape and sexual abuse is thankfully in a minority and in educating our children of the facts too young can frighten them.

I too believe in keeping some innocence during the primary years and think that PANTS is as much as they need to know at this age.

Ididntseeitsoitdidnthappen · 06/09/2014 16:14

I didn't say that calin

MollyHooper · 06/09/2014 16:15

You don't need to explain what sex is to inform your child about inappropriate touching.

It's your choice to have 'the talk' at an early age but other parents are not putting their children in danger because they choose not too.

DS1 is 7 and doesn't know about sex, he has never asked. He does know all about which parts of his body are private and so on, DH and I had that talk with him as soon as he was old enough to understand.

So yes, YABU.

Aeroflotgirl · 06/09/2014 16:16

Firstly Calin Sad and Flowers, how horrific. I do agree, but keep it age appropriate. But keeping children innocent or childlike includes clothing, films or videos they are exposed to, and the level of independence they should have at that age. I saw a little girl once, about 8/9 years, walking down the street in 1 inch heels and a very very short skirt. I was in H&M and was browsing for clothes for dd 7 years, and I saw denim dasiy dukes (meant for adult women) for 3 year olds! I want my 7 year old to look like a 7 year old, not like a teen or a little lolita. I want to control the information that she is exposed to so that it is age appropriate for her

MollyHooper · 06/09/2014 16:25

BabyDubsEverywhere, just wait until they ask.

Some children just aren't that fussed about the subject of where babies come from and at 6 and 7 there is really no reason to bring the subject up until they are curious.

As long as they are aware of the parts of their body that are private. The NSPCC PANTS thing was linked on the other thread, it seems really good.

Original poster
cailindana · 06/09/2014 16:26

morethan - being able to put it into words would have meant I could have told someone, and perhaps the men who did it would have been stopped. As it is, they probably went on to rape many more children.

Having been a teacher I think if you think a 7 year old doesn't know anything about sex you are totally deluded. He definitely does know things, except he's getting his information from other 7 year olds rather than adults who actually know what they're talking about.

The clothes thing is a whole other thread aeroflot and not what I'm discussing here.

OP posts:
Alsoflamingo · 06/09/2014 16:27

OP, I am so sorry about your experience and I totally understand your concerns about the dangers of keeping children 'over-protected'. I hate the fact that we have to worry about these things, but the reality is that we do….

In terms of the facts of life, I found it extremely easy in that both my DCs asked me for proper info (not at the same time!) when they were really young which I just delivered in a matter of fact way. DD was begging for me to show her a video of a birth on youtube (which I can reassure you I didn't agree to!). But it has just been totally relaxed chat about facts - nothing about being 'sexy' or any language/concepts along those lines. And am in same camp as FuckoffW above about vile porny music videos etc - believe in protecting against that for as long as poss.

BUT, that isn't the same as telling/warning them about inappropriate behaviour, paedophiles etc. The NSPCC has a good bit on their website about how to broach the subject with children. I decided to 'have the chat' before mine went off on camp this summer and it was surprisingly ok. It didn't have to get too dark or innocence destroying; I think we find it so hard because we read the news and know the horror of what goes on. Because children are (generally) coming from a position of innocence, the conversation isn't so alarming if they just hear 'some adults or older teenagers can want to touch you in where they shouldn't in the same way that some people are bad and want to rob people's houses. You must always remember that your body is your own and no one must ever touch it without your permission or ask you to keep secrets about that sort of thing' (or similar).

Original poster
cailindana · 06/09/2014 16:27

I don't agree with the idea that children who don't ask are oblivious. They absolutely are not. For a child who goes to school to know nothing about sex they would have to be completely deaf and probably blind too. And even then I'm sure they'd find out somehow.

OP posts:
MollyHooper · 06/09/2014 16:29

I'm deluded? Nice. :o

No, I'm really not. You don't know anything about my son.

bellarations · 06/09/2014 16:36

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

MollyHooper · 06/09/2014 16:36

It's certainly not the case in DS's school.

I got called in because he had said he 'fancied' a girl in has class. The teachers really wouldn't put up with 7 year olds talking about sex like that. Every school is different.

DS is neither deaf nor blind but he does have a big mouth, trust me he would have said something about it. He wouldn't be able to help himself.

Original poster
cailindana · 06/09/2014 16:38

I think if you could earwig in the school playground for a while you might change your mind Molly.

Children are naturally curious about bodies. They love talking about poo and farts and willies etc. At some point someone at school twigs about babies and then the theories start. It's all very jovial and friendly but so much of it is totally wrong (one child theory I heard is that you have sex for three minutes if you want one baby and six minutes if you want twins!) and all it needs is for parents to step in and just give the plain simple facts. Ignorance is at best pointless and confusing for the child, and at worst dangerous.

OP posts:
Original poster
cailindana · 06/09/2014 16:41

Molly I think if you actually asked your son outright you would find that he has heard things at school. It might not have occurred to him to bring it up or he might not be bothered about it, but I would bet he has heard things.

OP posts:
Aeroflotgirl · 06/09/2014 16:42

I agree it should be up to the parents what tgey tell third children, only they will know them and their level of understanding.

Shahsham · 06/09/2014 16:43

On the one hand I was a very innocent and naive child (I remember being surprised to learn in year7 biology that a penis actually enters the body during sex, and doesnt just stay outside) and fortunately nothing bad happened to me. I was also prudish (eg gettin changed inthe changing rooms I had to be covered up despite being 8 and years away from puberty) ad the idea that anyone could touch me would have greatly distressed me (I was a very anxious child).

On the other hand I am determined to equipe my boys with age appropriate knowledge to protect them. PANTS looks good but is too old for my boys.

I want the 3 year old (who is at school) to know people shouldnt be touching him inappropriately....but when I started to say no one can touch your willy. I had to add 'except mummy, daddy, grandparents' (who look after him after school and bath him) by which time the message is lost.

Thanks to all those who have been abused

Original poster
cailindana · 06/09/2014 16:43

I agree aeroflot, the problem is you can't stop them talking to other children at school. So unless you give them the facts they will get it from other children, either accurately or inaccurately.

OP posts:
Ididntseeitsoitdidnthappen · 06/09/2014 16:44

cailin why is it so hard to grasp that some children really do not know about sex?

Shahsham · 06/09/2014 16:45

Btw grandparents wash him with a flannel - no actual touching of his willy but ykwim

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