Indyref Part 4

[SantanaLopez]

Evening all :)

iF YOU ARE INTERESTED IN AFFECTING CLIMATE CHANGE YOU SHOULD TRY AND LEVER YOURSELF SOME INFLUENCE WITH cHINA. Or invent something. (Sorry for caps there!)

Voting yes in a localised referendum will have diddly squat effect

I get the impression that younger people feel that it is thanks to the Westminster government they have a difficult time of it financially - housing costs, high unemployment and cost of higher education. Compared to their parents that is true - in many respects we've had it lucky (I'm a parent of teenagers). DS has said that he doesn't remember a time before 'the recession and the credit crunch'. They think their own situation can't get any worse by voting for a risky set-up. When I was young I think everyone was hopeful that their standard of living would improve.

But it's thanks to Westminster that they/we have a welfare state, NHS etc and the standard of living of nearly everyone before them improved.

A yes vote is seen as anti-establishment by younger yes voters. A Scottish establishment will be replacing it though.

under - the problem is that this is not 100% clear - all taxes go to HMRC and the treasury. The Scottish parliament has limited and unexercised tax raiding powers. Things like defence are not apportioned on country lines - they go to soldiers pay, buying planes, ships, buckets-o-sunshine.

Thanks Stat I'll have a look at them.

Weatherall I'm sorry you feel picked on but I also feel belittled for being a rational pragmatic person wishing for a No vote. It's not fun being the dull person who wonders how bills are to be paid. Asking questions and pointing out pitfalls is not bullying imo.

If a Yes voter says it will be hard and costly but I believe in independence for Scotland, I have nothing to debate with them.

LadyCordelia

That's a completely fair caveat!

What oddcommentator said is very true btw - it's hard to apportion things which aren't already split and what we have now doesn't necessarily reflect what it would look like going forward. That cuts both ways - the Yes campaign like to shout about the money they would save in certain areas e.g. Trident whilst ignoring others where costs would increase on a per head basis due to the loss of economies of scale, or what our costs of borrowing would be which is of course hugely dependent on the (yes I know very dull how dare I talk about the economy ) currency situation and how that resolves. So you do have to start from what we have and then take a reasoned opinion on what could happen afterwards.

At the moment our books don't balance - the whole of the UK is running a deficit and that includes Scotland.

nc, the live video of that woman being kicked out at was carried in the front page of the BBC Scotland website. That's where I saw it, so would a lot of people. The "Jim Murphy being egged" is perpetuating a misleading comparison because it was the foul language, jostling and intimidation he was complaining about, not the daft egg.

It's the Utopian vision that perfection in social justice and climate change will somehow be achieved only by independence, held by Yes voters, that is unrealistic. I'm sure these things are just as important to everyone in the UK. 'No' voters care as well.

LadyCordelia- you do sound representative of the no voters I know. The top 1% in terms of wealth who have a 'I'm alright Jack' approach to the referendum.

Yes, we should keep the status quo to protect the people like you who are privileged enough to have a spare £25k every year to pay in tax whilst millions in Scotland will never earn that in a year.

I want a Scotland that works for those earning £25k not those who see that as small change.

Afewfallenleaves- getting a degree is hard and costly but it's worth it.

My DS is recently back from the Edinburgh Festival. He's English. He was told to "fuck off home" (or words to that effect) three times in four days. By people who overheard his accent when he was talking to his friends.

One future tourist lost I suspect.

My household income is below average and I'm voting no.

AFew, exactly. I feel a bit like I've been banging my head against a wall trying to get No concerns taken seriously or responded to in a grown-up and realistic way.

As it is, if there's a Yes vote, DH and I could wake up on the 19th with DH's job under threat, or moving to London, in which case we would all be movingn south, so I would also lose my job. On top of which our house would probably be halved in value, as there would be very few if any financial workers around willing to buy.

So, sorry to be ever so slightly concerned and asking for some answers.

Ah, I see we're back to the "No voters are selfish rich people" viewpoint.

Firstly, there are far too many no voters for us all to be in the 1%, or even anywhere near the 1%. Secondly, I do not have an "I'm alright Jack" approach to the referendum. In fact my attitude is the opposite. I see no evidence that voting Yes will improve the situation for those who are the poorest in our country. Who suffers most when a country is struggling? The poorest. If our economy is damaged, if large companies leave, if there is a flight of those who are more highly skilled and most able to find work in other countries and a corresponding fall in tax income as a result, how is that going to help the poorest? It's not.

Stop trying to make out that all those voting No don't care about the poor because it's nonsense. Some of us just care about the poor. Some of us have been poor. Some of us are poor.

weatherall are you advising me to get a degree? Could you please elaborate.

weatherall - good luck with paying for it. Because, without the likes of LadyCordelia you won't have the tax revenues to spend on benefits, health, roads etc. Money does not grow on trees and it can only be pumped out of the ground for so long. Governments spend money that they take in as income. The income comes from taxes. Taxes come from people who are earning. Big taxes from big earners. Small amounts from the lower paid. Nothing from many.

The society you so long for will have to be paid for somehow. There are net contributors (tax payers) and net beneficiaries (those on benefits, the elderly, children - non taxpayers). Some people are both - like me - pay a lot of tax but also get a bit back in child benefit etc.

In an Independent Scotland - 2 things will happen.

1. There will be much less money to spend because lots of companies and tax payers will leave Scotland.

1. Things will be more expensive because the economic situation with the banks will lead to higher interest rates, greater costs in terms of shopping, housing etc.

My grasp of economics is nothing like as good as many on here but I know for an absolute fact that a Yes vote will cost both individuals, like LadyCordelia and myself, and the country ( the collective you are concerned about) lots and lots of money. Less will come in and more will have to go out. Scary!

weatherall, where on earth do you think tax revenue comes from?

We are the 1%, and as I've outlined above, we may well have to move south for work. I am not asking for any sympathy as yes, it is some sort of choice (altho quite how my 55 yr old DH is supposed to retrain at this age, I'm not sure) - I'm just pointing out a fact.

No high-earners, and fewer big companies = less tax take for your lower earners.

You better cling on to that not-very-green oil industry instead.

I said I've no argument with a person wishing for Scottish Independence. I do object however to being taken for a fool by Alex Salmond and his propaganda machine.

weatherall If an independent Scotland results in lower revenues - which I (and many others think it would) then it doesn't matter what policies or tax system/system of re-distributing wealth we have - there won't be money to support earners of less than £25K.

Just out of interest, how many people on this thread are going to move South in the event of a Yes vote?

x-posted as usual.

Odd, Stat I realise it's hard to get figures for many things. But surely it can't be that hard to come up with estimates, guesses, best/worst case figures for many of the major revenues and expenses - and then add them all up.
I assume any such balance sheet is not clear-cut otherwise I would have seen something - "look, the books would never balance!" Or "Look, Scotland would be running a massive surplus every year!".