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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Indyref Part 4

999 replies

SantanaLopez · 01/09/2014 21:11

Evening all :)

OP posts:
weatherall · 03/09/2014 11:16

Yes, teamscotland but the coven will still chant 'where will all the money come from'.

Anyway I thought all you 'no' peeps were all too busy being 'economically productive' during the day to talk to us 'yes fuckers'?

Is that 'economic activity' in a BT/Labour party office per chance?

Or will that be another question the coven never answer?

weatherall · 03/09/2014 11:19

And the 'rational' partners on the No side are

The Orange Order
Britannia party
UKIP
SDL

Nice bedfellows.

NCforAye · 03/09/2014 11:19

Because the career politicians in Scotland are so different from those in Westminster...

Even if they are exactly the same as Westminster politicians - self-serving, self-interested, corrupt, etc! - they would be our self-serving, self-interested, corrupt politicians, and their careers would depend on winning election or re-election from a Scottish electorate. Therefore they would have to make promises that worked for the Scottish people, and keep maybe a third of them, in order to stay in power. Currently, Scottish votes almost never affect the balance of power in Westminster (even if around half the time the overall Scottish vote happens to line up with the overall UK vote), so there is no motivation for the self-serving, self-interested, corrupt politicians in Westminster to make any promises or policies that attract Scottish voters to their cause.

feelingmellow · 03/09/2014 11:20

wetherall I think I must have missed the entries relating to covens. Who are they and what do they stand for?

Sallyingforth · 03/09/2014 11:23

Unfortunately as you can see oddcommentator your comments are falling on deaf ears. Those who are committed to No are nodding quietly, and those committed to Yes are not about to change their minds.

Your points have not been put adequately to the general population, and anyone who has tried has been accused of scaremongering.

The referendum only asks if Scotland should be an independent country. It says nothing about how that might be achieved. The SNP has put forward its White Wishlist, which is apparently believed by many people to be exactly what they will get by voting Yes.

They will be very disappointed.

feelingmellow · 03/09/2014 11:25

NCforAYe, you are clearly extremely anti WM. How do you feel about the rest of us south of the border?

oddcommentator · 03/09/2014 11:25

Weatherall - you have to admit - making promises about how lovely it will be and refusing to say how it will be paid for doesn't lend credence to your argument.

Who is this coven? Does it involve dancing naked by moonlight? enquiring minds need to know. And no - my economic activity today is Mnet having taken little one to start school - for the first time.

WhatWouldFreddieDo · 03/09/2014 11:26

NC I have some sympathy there - but the advantages of our politicians, closer to the electorate, are outweighed in my opinion by the disadvantages of the huge economic instability and weakening that would result from a Yes.

LadyCordeliaFlyte · 03/09/2014 11:29

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

StatisticallyChallenged · 03/09/2014 11:31

The Coven are anybody who is posting in this thread who is a declared no voter and whom Weatherall, displaying her excellent research and deduction skills, concluded were all fake posters rather than regulars and must be coming over from a secret Facebook group.

OOAOML · 03/09/2014 11:31

weatherall to answer your points:

I am currently at work in the office of a large financial institution. I can't name it because my views are my own and I cannot link them to my employer. I have several windows open on my screen and dip in and out of the thread in between doing my work. I probably shouldn't be posting during the day, but in common with many people on both sides, this is rather dominating my thoughts at the moment.

There's nothing wrong in asking/talking about the economic angle. It is fairly crucial, and key to meeting policy aspirations. It isn't always very efficiently discussed in the soundbite politics the news treats us to, so discussing it here is useful.

I volunteer in a BT office after work. I am not a member of the Labour party.

I despise the Orange Order, UKIP and the SDL, I hadn't heard of Britannia until recently, but they look vile as well. I don't have to like everyone who is voting No. In the same way that Yes voters are a spectrum, so are No voters. I wish Farage and the Orange Order weren't planning their events - I really don't think they will help.

And I don't think I have ever refererd to Yes voters as 'yes fuckers'. I'm sorry if someone has used those words, they are as unhelpful as all the times I've been told I am a traitor, a Tory and personally consigning the next generation to the scrap heap. You do seem to have a bee in your bonnet about abuse - as I've said before the threads here may have got heated on occasion, but in general they have been postiive debate. We even manage to have a laugh on occasion, and personally I for one need a bit of light relief every now and again.

WillPenn · 03/09/2014 11:32

I understand what Odd is saying. I am an economic historian and I am not sticking my fingers in my ears, but I am voting yes.

I realize I am taking a risk, but essentially the argument seems to run that the capitalist system in which a country's entire economic security is based on confidence in its banking sector means that no country should EVER take any risks in case it falls foul of "the market." I personally find this a tragedy - we can never address climate change, we can never strive for social justice, and we can never aim to reduce militarization, because we might reduce growth/de-stabilize the financial markets.

For me, it is not all about economic growth. Constant economic growth should not happen - it is not good for the planet and ultimately will be the death of humanity. I would love to live in a country that better recognizes this, and I think the only chance of this happening is going it alone.

oddcommentator · 03/09/2014 11:34

Sally - i think you are right - but to be honest, i would be happy if everyone went into the polling booth having thought this one through. Not just on the basis - of a) hating Westminster politicians, b) hating the English, c) putting one over the man d) believing a vote for yes means milk and honey will suddenly replace midges and persistent drizzle.

The white paper is like a railway timetable - a wishlist with no intent to really deliver or any idea of how it will be achieved. If people start to probe and are shouted that they are bullying - makes you want to scratch a little deeper.

You wont turn a hovel into a new elysium by telling your neighbour to loudly and repeatedly fuck off. All you will have is a slightly smaller hovel and a grumpy neighbour. Not saying either England or Scotland is a hovel - but I am not sure that independence will deliver either a vital thrusting new economy or the workers paradise (delete according to political leaning) that is promised by Salmond (again depending on audience). And i have said it before - as chief economist of RBS - he knows all the currency detail - in all its horrifying gory technicolour. So he is either being dishonest (a politician being dishonest - really?) or is suffering from delusion or is being deliberately so mendacious ....

feelingmellow · 03/09/2014 11:37

WillPen unfortunately you are describing utopia. It will never happen. There is a sayng "No man is an island" ................

feelingmellow · 03/09/2014 11:38

oddcommentator yo talk a lot of sense. I hope it gets through

weatherall · 03/09/2014 11:39

Scotland has plenty of strong industries which will make us a successful nation state.

Food and drink inc whisky
Renewable energy
Electronics
Chemicals
Life sciences
Higher education
Tourism
Forestry
Fishing
Oil and Gas
Shipbuilding
Pharmaceuticals
Mining
Finance
Textiles
Design inc gaming
Engineering

It is a very diverse economy. We are not dependent on oil or the banks.

Out biggest asset is our highly skilled workforce.

With independence and immigration policies designed to suit Scotland we can attract the best from across the globe to create the Scotland we want.

StatisticallyChallenged · 03/09/2014 11:40

And no, I don't work for BT or any political party either.

feelingmellow · 03/09/2014 11:41

Soory Weatherall, but you are being naive

NCforAye · 03/09/2014 11:41

feelingmellow

Is it really a utopia to want to deal with climate change which, left unchecked, will ruin the only planet we [currently] have to live on?!

WillPenn · 03/09/2014 11:42

Yes I realize I am utopian in my outlook - but if no one ever has any vision, where does that leave us? Why should we all just "settle" for second or third best?

In the past, societies took real risks when they revolted against the established order. Why can we not do this again? Sure, it didn't always work out - but if you don't try, you will never know if it would have done.

oddcommentator · 03/09/2014 11:43

Weatherall. I agree a lot on that list. How much of it depends on your largest trading partner?

How much trade is with the EU?

How many of those depend on contracts from England?

feelingmellow · 03/09/2014 11:44

NCfor Aye you were describing much more than climate change - how long do you think it will take to achieve this land of milk and honey?

WillPenn · 03/09/2014 11:45

NCforAye couldn't agree more.

weatherall · 03/09/2014 11:45

Ooaoml- you may have refrained from hurling abuse at yes posters on these threads but several of the posters on your side who post at the same time as you call yes supporters 'fuckers/feckless/scroungers/lazy/stupid/ignorant/economically inactive' etc and I have never seen you challenge their behaviour.

I've never come across such nastiness in this whole campaign as I have on mumsnet from No campaigners.

It has been a one sided bullying campaign.

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