Indyref Part 4

[SantanaLopez]

Evening all :)

I'm hoping we'll get nicola and douglas back at some point

Flora scotia - look over previous threads. Honestly it has been more serious and informative than anything else I have read . And good natured on the whole. So remarks about hair and pants were knowingly frivolous.

And yes it's great to hear all these voices and see women operating at the top of their game. It's inspiring however you intend to vote.

On the subject of the EU, I also wondered what you think of the misperceptions that i) the UK has always and must always build warlike ships within the UK and ii) that choosing to build warlike ships outside the UK means that the contracts must go out to commercial tender - which isn't at all the case as they would still be exempt from the tendering process under Article 346.

The UK can build its navy ships anywhere it likes, and has ordered fleet tankers from Korea. But for security and other reasons, fighting ships are ordered from the UK. It costs more because UK shipyards can't compete on price. The last major order was placed on the Clyde, to the great annoyance of the Portsmouth dockyard and MPs. It's widely believed this was a politically motivated decision to keep the Clyde shipyards from closure.
If Scotland leaves the UK there is no incentive for the navy to build ships there and every incentive to build them in Portsmouth.

Flora I worry too, but I can't take much more discussion of the big issues. I've done it so many times, I've written thousands and thousands of words on here and no one has taken a blind bit of notice.

If there's a yes vote we'll have to leave for DH's job. I'm pregnant with twins and my DD won't even be 2. My mental health is on the line here. I am trying so hard to keep positive but it's so hard. Trivial things are fine to discuss because it's okay. But I post about EU membership and the economy and I'm totally dismissed and I can't keep doing it.

They are really important, we're not disputing that at all. It's just that after lots of posts, for all many of us are on opposite sides of the debate, we need to find a little humour and lightheartedness. Some of us are really stressed by this actually - and if we don't occasionally lighten the mood...

I've said before that I'm utterly unconvinced by the assertions that Scotland would be a fairer, more just place. I actually think we could see a swing to the right - I think a recession at least in the short run is at least a strong probability and there is nothing like rising unemployment and financial struggles to make people more insular.

You do raise a good issue, and sorry if you thought we weren't being serious enough. But if we didn't joke occasionally we'd have resorted to swearing and insults and anger by now. Many of us are experiencing enough of that in real life.

I'm liking Ruth. She's calm and is looking nice.

Everything okay today frankie?

Hi Santana thanks for asking, my apology was accepted and we are 'cool' but it does show how this referendum is affecting peoples relationships with others

Hi everyone.

Reading your posts tonight I just wanted to apologise if I waded in the other day a bit suddenly. I just needed to get clarity on my own thoughts and had been lurking a bit and thought this would be better than comments below a random blog....
I am very grateful for everyone's input.
I think many folks will be glad it's over soon, whatever happens.
That's all!

I almost fell out with my best friend over it too frankie80, it's tough.

I thought his response on the EU question was very weak.

Someone painted a giant yes on a field on a hill near us, it can be seen for miles around.

On the plus side, it has outed some more no voters due to people complaining to me about it.

Thanks, everyone. It's good to know that there are so many caring people out there.
And grace and humour even in grim places are qualities that all Scots can be proud of.

If I caused offence, am really very sorry.

Someone has stuck a huge banner round a chimney in the Royal Mile area as well - you can see it for miles!

stats that made me thank you.

That's good Frankie. Although sadly I don't think you're the first and you won't be the last!

No one is wading in here. It's not a club! All welcome to jump in and out.

Sallyingforth
I agree - I think there is very very little chance that UK Warships will be built in Scotland. There is a general precedent for obvious logical reasons that actual warships would be built in the UK. If Scotland goes independent then it will be a foreign country - and then classed the same as any other country in the world. In the (unlikely) event rUK decide it will consider ships built elsewhere then immediately Scottish yards would compete with French, German, Dutch, Italian, US yards.... All I am sure far cheaper. For example see the tankers - orders placed in Korea - why not UK (Scottish) shipyards ? - cos they are far more expensive.
Independence will be the death knell for the Scottish yards, no matter what.
And it is disgraceful for the SNats to pretend otherwise.

My dad said today he thinks people are afraid to tell the pollsters how they will really vote. He firmly believes in a 'silent majority'

floria - I responded to you regarding telecoms as it was an area in which I had had some expertise. Amongst other things, I was involved in supporting the roll-out of mobile coverage to rural areas many years ago , with the support of EU funding. These were on the basis of their licence obligations - licences which were let by the UK Government . In most cases, the commercial companies will do the bare minimum required and incentives are required (BTW - I wasn't BT! )(NB: on this occasion, BT=BritishTelecom and not Better Together )

I agree with problems re the NHS - but am very concerned about the changes in the English NHS, where the Secretary for State for Health no longer has responsibility for providing universal healthcare provision - and am not reassured that the same thing couldn't happen in Scotland (with even more devastating consequences for rural areas ) as none of the devolved powers are set in stone and Labour for one has said that they would like to see a more unified structure. Add that to risk posed by the TTIP, which looks likely to become law, where privatisation becomes a one way street and I get really really worried, as Scotland could be viewed simply as a region of the UK and therefore subject to the same one-way "opening up" of the market that has occurred in England

I realise all that, Sallying. And I almost agree with this:

"If Scotland leaves the UK there is no incentive for the navy to build ships there and every incentive to build them in Portsmouth."

But my question was about why there's been a tendency to claim that any defence contract not placed within the UK has to be put out to tender, when that's not actually true.

RE Portsmouth/Glasgow. That was a decision that BAE systems took, and political considerations aside (I hope you aren't suggesting that it was a bribe to vote no!) BAE chose the Clyde because it was more cost effective, and there are additional capacities there which don't exist in Portsmouth. Given that BAE is a British company, and is the MOD's contractor of choice, and will still be a British company postreferendum, I'd say that there is still some incentive for BAE, if given the contract, to built them on the Clyde. A lot of people would have you believe that this would be impossible due to EU legislation, but that's not at all the case.

No offence taken, don't be daft :)

"it will be a foreign country - and then classed the same as any other country in the world. In the (unlikely) event rUK decide it will consider ships built elsewhere then immediately Scottish yards would compete with French, German, Dutch, Italian, US yards."

This is exactly the misperception I'm talking about. Building a ship outside the UK does not, as many people mistakenly believe, that the contract is then automatically subject to international competition!

joins the singing, nostalgic for brownies

The "Defence force" plans are childish and ill thought out as well.
I don't think they have given it more than ten minutes thought. It's a good job it's not a big political issue as it does not stand up to any scrutiny.
However, Defence is one of those things that you don't think about until you REALLY need it - by then it's too late.

It would be political suicide for British military contracts to be awarded to shipyards in an independent Scotland. It might be legal, but that's a different thing.

Don't worry about it FloraScotia - if you just wandered in and hadn't seen the previous threads then you could easily think we weren't taking it seriously. We are, promise! We've had some really in depth discussions about the economy, social justice, democracy, poverty, health....