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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to start yet another Indyref thread?

999 replies

FannyFifer · 28/08/2014 19:21

Round 3 folks.

We should arrange an Indyref meet up at this stage. Grin

OP posts:
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7
deeedeee · 29/08/2014 21:45

Stop getting on you lot! It's disgraceful, you're not taking this seriously enough. I'll lob a bloody chicken at the first person who worries about the economy. Bring it on!

Roseformeplease · 29/08/2014 21:52

Ã’n my Facebook today, as part of a longer quotation from Craig Murray, who I have never heard of but is, apparently, a former UK ambassador:

"It is not possible to vote no and be a decent person"

How are we supposed to rebuild relationships within Scotland when people write things like this? I am passionately "No" and yet would defend someone's right to vote as they please and see it as no reflection on their decency, or morality or whatever, if they voted "Yes". We are not talking voting for Stalin or Pol Pot here, just voting to keep Scotland as part of the Union. Words actually fail me. The original quotation was posted by some I know but am not Facebook friends with and then reported by a friend.

The original poster works in an University. The reporter is a local public servant - not people I would have expected that level of vitriol from, even if they are passionate.

Roseformeplease · 29/08/2014 22:02

Oops re-posted, not reported. Although it should be reported. This has really put me wrong. I have seen some unpleasant stuff but this is the first time I have felt that it is directed at me.

StatisticallyChallenged · 29/08/2014 22:03

That's a disgraceful quote. it really is.

JimMurphysHump · 29/08/2014 22:04

It's a very odd quote too. I have no idea why he'd think it is a good idea to say such a thing.

deeedeee · 29/08/2014 22:08

This guy?

www.craigmurray.org.uk

Can you put the quote in context? What's the full text?

TheBogQueen · 29/08/2014 22:13

I think the context of that quote is that the man speaking was ambassador to Uzbekistan and states that the uk shipped people over there to be tortured for information. He claims the Blair government knew there were no WMDs in Iraq but went to war anyway for the oil.

His point is that if you vote No you are endorsing a Westminster institution which sees no moral problem with doing these things.

AFewFallenLeaves · 29/08/2014 22:13

The video of Craig Murray was posted on the previous indy thread.

Roseformeplease · 29/08/2014 22:18

This is my response:" It is not possible to vote No and be a decent person" really? I disagree with many, many people politically but I would never, ever suggest that their views were in some way a reflection on their decency unless those views were extreme, racist, homophobic or un democratic. This kind of attitude is very, very damaging to relationships between people who, whatever the outcome of the vote, will have to live with and amongst each other afterwards.

And the original post, in full will follow as iPad not easy to cut and paste on.

Roseformeplease · 29/08/2014 22:20

Original post:

'Anyone who votes NO is supporting a pathological state, which is a danger in the world, a rogue state - a state prepared to go to war to make a few people wealthy. That's why ....it is not possible to vote NO and be a decent person, and we should not be ashamed to say that'
Craig Murray, former UK ambassador to Uzbekistan.

TheBogQueen · 29/08/2014 22:22

Reasonable people will not see a No vote as an endorsement of torture.

The referendum is about far more than the self serving amoral foreign policy of the last Laboyr government.

deeedeee · 29/08/2014 22:22

en.ria.ru/world/20140828/192428303/Former-British-Ambassador-to-Uzbekistan-Says-UK-Rogue-State.html

I see!

I must admit, part if my reason for voting yes is because I don't want to be ruled by a government that condones Israel, that takes part in illegal wars, that acts the world policeman. It is wrong.

How do all feel about the question of independance and the wars of the uk government.

And anyone else feel a bit cynical and nervous about the high terrorist alert news today? Yawn. Distraction anyone? Unite them against a common foe?

Roseformeplease · 29/08/2014 22:22

But, most importantly, why would my friend think it is OK to say this to ".No" voters? How do you remain friends with someone after this kind of comment? I am usually happy to have debates and opposing views - part of my job is debating and thinking through problems. But, this kind of view is corrosive and will not help, whatever the result on 18th Sept.

deeedeee · 29/08/2014 22:26

I think the point us that Craig Murray feels that some of the things the uk endorses and is part of internationally are comparable the pol pot and Stalin.

Roseformeplease · 29/08/2014 22:31

Yes, I can see what he thinks, and don't care because I don't know him. But feel very upset that this kind of thing is being casually shared.

If you are arguing you should vote "Yes" because one government did something you disagree with, then surely that is a fairly slim reason, given that many, many Westminster politicians, and others would agree. Westminster also stood against Hitler and Stalin and opposes the likes of Mugabe and others.

Slim reasoning. And, very upsetting.

Sallyingforth · 29/08/2014 22:39

Hello again deeedeee

And anyone else feel a bit cynical and nervous about the high terrorist alert news today? Yawn. Distraction anyone? Unite them against a common foe?

No I don't think it's anything to do with the referendum. All across Europe there are concerns about a heightened terrorist threat, and it is very real, even for Scotland. Remember the attack at Glasgow airport?

Like you, I'd like the referendum date to come and go as quickly as possible, and for the Scottish people to decide what they want to do. Hopefully it will be a clear decision either way.

Criseyde · 29/08/2014 22:49

I'm getting a bit tired of hearing about how "divisive" this debate is, and how it's (apparently) tearing communities apart.... (I've seen no evidence of this at all in my own life) It seems to be a way of insinuating that we shouldn't even be having the debate in the first place, and shutting conversation down.

There are unwelcome/undesirable parties on both sides of the debate, that much is clear. But this doesn't mean that the wider debate hasn't been worth having. The turnout for this referendum will be exceptionally high, and huge numbers of people have registered to vote for the very first time. That's a really positive thing - whatever the outcome.

Regarding online/comments posts... I think that the quotation mentioned, even in the context of UK foreign policy is obviously very extreme and not very persuasive! But in terms of generally harsh/hyperbolic statements in online debate and maintaining civility...well if you can't have a blunt/heated exchange with an acquaintance about an issue and still maintain a friendship then you have bigger problems than the Scottish referendum! I don't mean that in a mean way, it's just that I wouldn't take rhetoric to heart.

OOAOML · 29/08/2014 23:23

I think today's threat level is a reflection of current conflicts combined with the NATO summit coming up in Wales. I remember when the G8 was in Gleneagles there was a heightened terror perception.

SteamTrainsRealAleandOpenFires · 29/08/2014 23:46

Scotland doesn't have to join the eu to trade it can apply to join www.efta.int/ though i would imagine that WM & the eu would put pressure (trade sanctions etc) on Efta, to stop Scotland joining

NCforAye · 30/08/2014 00:06

deeedeee and Roseformeplease

What a weird coincidence that this quote should come up -- I was at the event where it was made.

I was quite disconcerted and worried by how deeply, deeply jaded and critical he was of the British state and everything it does. One would expect, after all, that a former ambassador would know what he was talking about. Confused It seemed he was privy to proof that the government had done some truly awful things during that the general public were not aware of. Of course to some extent this isn't surprising (he mentioned that the whole knowing that there were no WOMD going onto the Iraq war was true, which I think was widely suspected anyway), but it was quite chilling to hear it straight from the horse's mouth.

His wider view was that the system is utterly corrupt and broken and that (after the failure to get voting reform in 2011), Scottish independence is the only option. He stated that there is a closed elite made up of politicians, media moguls, et al, who will always close ranks in their own interests - indeed he gave the example of the AV referendum in which the media reporting was hugely biased towards the 'no reform' side, because AV would have actually resulted in a fair voting system in which one of the main two parties couldn't always be guaranteed significant power.

Personally, I was very uncomfortable with his statement that it is not possible to be a No voter and a decent person. I think that would be true if someone recognised all of the above injustices in the way he did and still voted "No", but most people aren't coming at the decision with that collection of life experiences and impressions. I think that for the very most part all of us are just trying to make the decision that genuinely accords with our own convictions, which is precisely why I've been so keen to maintain this dialogue here - because I think we are all genuine people trying to work towards a decision, and I'm intrigued by the different ways we reach different decisions.

That said, I did agree with a slightly gentler point that he made, which is that he had difficulties with the claim made some months ago that if either campaign could prove people would be £500 better/worse off a year in the case of independence, that side would win. He said he thought people should be looking beyond their own individual concerns to the wider interests, which I concur with. I've encountered a number of academics saying that their own students people should vote No because of the uncertainty surrounding research funding. Although I'm fairly confident research funding will be fine, I would also vote Yes even if it wouldn't be (and this would affect my life a great deal), because I think a Yes vote could improve the lives of those a heck of a lot less privileged than those living and working in the ivory towers.

Sallyingforth · 30/08/2014 00:16

though i would imagine that WM & the eu would put pressure (trade sanctions etc) on Efta, to stop Scotland joining

Why on earth would they do that? It would be pointless and not in anyone's interest.

If Scotland decides on independence there is no reason for Westminster or the EU to be spiteful or take any punitive measures. There will be competition of course, but it will be fair, just like with any other friendly foreign country. I hope that doesn't sound naive - I genuinely think it will be that way. But don't expect any favours either!

squoosh · 30/08/2014 00:52

'Personally, I was very uncomfortable with his statement that it is not possible to be a No voter and a decent person. I think that would be true if someone recognised all of the above injustices in the way he did and still voted "No", but most people aren't coming at the decision with that collection of life experiences and impressions.'

Interesting.

I find your view just as patronising and insulting.

People who vote 'No' are just a bit stupid and don't realise what a big bad wolf the UK is?

squoosh · 30/08/2014 00:58

Anyway, I'm still not voting, just getting a bit frustrated by some of the holier than thou attitudes.

NCforAye · 30/08/2014 01:08

squoosh

I'm really sorry, that wasn't what I meant... "recognised" was perhaps the wrong word. What I meant was that if someone held the same view as he did - that the UK was corrupt and that Scotland would be better off without it - and then voted "No" because that corruption suited them, then that would be morally problematic. I didn't mean to imply that his view (of the UK as a "big bad wolf") was necessarily correct, just the one that he reached through living the life that he did. Does that make sense?

Also, I'm sorry if you've mentioned this before, but are you eligible to vote and not voting?

NCforAye · 30/08/2014 01:19

I am really sorry - I've re-read it and that paragraph did come out completely wrong. Shouldn't post musings at midnight on Friday after Wine. Blush

I do not think No voters are stupid, or not decent people, just because they are voting No. I personally believe a "Yes" vote will be best for Scotland, and will continue sharing my reasons for thinking that until the very last day in the hope that undecided people I have conversations with will reach the same conclusion, but I also completely respect the fact that there are also people out there who believe exactly the same about a "No" vote.