to start yet another Indyref thread?

[FannyFifer]

Round 3 folks.

We should arrange an Indyref meet up at this stage.

Ah, "the fundamentals .....are is this country CAPABLE of running its own affairs" not 'self-determination'!!!

Therefore AS has no arguments against no-voters who believe Scotland is capable of running its own affairs, but don't want independence. The man is utterly unbelievable.

Statistically challenged- that is a very good example about a cultural difference between Scotland and England. In Scotland the tradition is to stay at home and go to your local Uni. It is an English tradition to move away at 18 for Uni. This is another reason to have a distinct higher education policy and funding system.

weatherall there is a distinct he policy and funding system. I really do not get your point.

It is an English tradition to move away at 18 for Uni

Which surely means that, if we are an EU country as promised we're going to struggle to keep providing free tuition fees post independence, as English students will be happy to come here in their droves.

Me neither Leaves.

weatherall - can you back up that claim? Off the top of my head it strikes me that most students in the Highlands and Islands can't stay at home to go to uni.

Whereas there must be a huge number of London students who could.

Statchallenged: yes English treated as EU students could be a problem, I hadn't thought that through. What's Alex's spin?

chocoluvva

You asked what is distinct about Scottish culture?

-what I said above about higher ed
-attitudes to school places and lower rates of private schooling
-sectarianism
-the climate - a colder and wetter climate necessitates different types of housing- look at the disasters of damp housing
-the cold weather means that the introduction of vat to domestic gas and electric disproportionately affected Scottish people
-the remote and island communities (often no mains gas) have higher transport costs so fuel duties affect people there more than in London where there is good public transport

• reading Kate Fox's 'watching the English' there are traits we have in common but a lot of it is English rather than British eg class obsession

That EU rules won't apply to us

"Our policy is based on the unique and exceptional position of Scotland in relation to other parts of the UK, on the relative size of the rest of the UK, on the fee differential, on our shared land border and common language, on the qualification structure, on the quality of our university sector and on the high demand for places. We believe that these distinctive characteristics will
enable us to justify objectively the continuation of our current policy in a way which is consistent with the principles of free movement across the EU as a whole and which is compatible with EU requirements. With independence, we will continue to support access to higher education in Scotland for students from elsewhere in the EU in accordance with our support for student mobility across Europe."

I am not a huge fan of the free tuition policy. It is mostly well off middle class parents who benefit and I don't think nmw workers should be subsidising such a tax break for the rich.

I wouldn't want the English system but I think a compromise can and will be found which will find the rUK as EU students funding gap.

AS not answering a question about new mortgages taken out from non-Scottish banks. He is guaranteeing something on the basis that Scotland will definitely still be using sterling! He is using ROI's arrangements with the UK govt - but not referring to the banks. Perhaps the Bank of England will give Scottish borrowers mortgages then

ROI's arrangements with the UK as a precedent.

Darling is just as bad choco, to be fair. He was abysmal at the last debate, and most of his opening speech was attacking Salmond.

I don't think either of them should be held up as embodiments of either campaign. There are plenty of other people involved in the Yes campaign who have provided sound arguments.

I don't think that's right. What did AD say that has no basis in evidence like AS claim that funded childcare enables children to bond with their families more?

Unfortunately, people believe AS.

chocoluvva

More distinct aspects of Scotland:

We have a higher proportion of employees in the public sector therefore the Tory policy of public sector cuts disproportionately effects employment and unemployment in Scotland. These job losses have a knock on effect on private businesses who depend on the wages of these staff.

• fishing is a huge industry in parts of Scotland but it isn't important to Westminster so they don't bother to argue for us in the EU with regards to fisheries policy. With an independent voice and many more MEPs than we have now we would be able to do more for our fishermen.

-it's a similar story with the lack of promotion of our whisky industry abroad through our embassies. It is a small part of the uk economy so they do t promote it as much as an independent Scotland could,

Remember that AS is now saying that a yes vote is not about a claim for self determination for the principle of it but about whether an independent Scotland is viable.

People voting on those grounds need facts rather than unjustifiable claims presented as facts.

OK I'll give you weather (But can think of Burnley in the rain and feel I'm being too generous.) and Highlands and Islands transport costs, and throw in daylight saving.

But how lower rates of private schooling need to be looked at:

As a headline figure it may be correct however once again it shows UK wide variation. Far heavier usage in London and South East of England for a start compared with all of the rest of England.
Then Edinburgh will have one of the highest rates of private schooling in the UK, 25% isn't it?

Also school places seems to be a big LOndon issue, there are localised issues in Scotland too.

I hear snobbery and classism in Scotland.And Kate Fox's book was unrecognisable to me personally, again perhaps it's a view of middle class London.

That Alex has chutzpah!

You really think Scotch whisky isn't promoted? Who told you that?

I thought Scotland has higher levels of public spending though. A higher proportion of public sector employees is expensive, not a reason to vote for an independent Scotland. With more public sector employees we have proportionately less revenue coming in from independent sources to fund the changes the SNP want.

Fishing is a big business in parts of England too.

Our whisky industry is doing very well and there's nothing stopping the existing Scottish parliament from promoting it.

Yup, Edinburgh is 1 in 4 at private school. Snobbery and classism, yes it exists, definitely not a peculiarly english trait!

More public sector jobs - yes, we have a higher proportion of people in public sector. Much of this is due to services which support the whole of the UK being based here. Of course we would need to set up services of our own, but I don't believe that Scotland would have a need for a public sector which is proportionally bigger than that which the UK as a whole has. The UK has 18% employed in ps, it's 21% in Scotland. If Scotland dropped to be in line with the UK - a not unreasonable starting point - then that would be approximately 78000 jobs lost.

Do you think iScotland can secure better fishing rights? I know people in the industry who have voted UKIP as they see the EU not Westminster as the problem.

The tory policy

Not a problem with government from Westminster - a problem with the current government.

I don't think that's right. What did AD say that has no basis in evidence like AS claim that funded childcare enables children to bond with their families more?

That he didn't know anything about those dodgy expenses claims. I know that isn't related though.

On a serious note, he quoted Sir Ian Wood for a start. Oil & Gas UK then dismissed his claims. A close family member works in this sector, and from what I've heard long before the independence issue, they are to be trusted.

Darling then struggled to name three job-creating powers which would come to Holyrood if we vote No. He could only repeat that being in the UK would create more jobs, but did not, or could not, back that up.

Currently Scottish Development International is charged when promoting whisky etc. in UK embassies through receptions (despite Scotland proportionally paying for these embassies). Similar UK organisations are not charged.

Re fishing etc. In the EU the UK wants to get the best deal for the maximum number of people. Things like fishing which are very important to scotland but less important to rUK will inevitably been as less important in the negotiations, and more likely to get hit in return for concessions in other areas in which will benefit the UK as a whole.

Like so much of this debate this is fair if you look at the UK as a whole, unfair if you see Scotland as a country.

Weatherall I think your parents should have asked for their fees back. What an odd school. And you actually.paid for this? You would have been better going to your local high school. Or one it one of those archaic schools like Butterstone, which teaches young ladies cooking and dancing but not academic skills, so as to get a husband?! I know some teachers at Scottish schools can come across as trying to make you know your place, but actually paying to be told that takes the biscuit!

I know of many Scots who have gone to Oxbridge. My DH's colleague's son is due to start at Oxford any day now.

As for a "tradition" of Scottish students staying at home. Please stop perpetuating untrue myths about the Scots being insular. They travel all over the work. Are you suggesting the predominately Scottish students in my hall of residence went to the effort of pretending to be Scottish and hail from all over Scotland? True, there are always going to be some who are scared to stray too far from the patents nest, but don't assume everyone else is the same!