to be shocked and scandalised that this went on unchecked for so long? [MN edit; contains details of current Rotherham news story, possibly triggering]

[ReputableBiscuit]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-28939089

" there was an attitude that the children brought it upon themselves and were making lifestyle choices. They didn't see them as vulnerable girls. Classism and misogyny"

This is at the root of the problem. Prostitution is seen as a lifestyle choice, not sexual exploitation. So when children are involved, especially those near the age of consent and who seem "street wise" are involved, no wonder some don't see the rape and sexual exploitation.

Rape and sexual abuse of both children and young adult women is driven by criminal gangs. They are usually ignored. You ignore that fact, you fail to see the reality of what is happening.

And I have just been reading an article from 2004 that talks about gangs raping, trafficking and sexually exploiting children in Blackpool. This is not confined to Rotherham.

If this was solely an asian male crime the police would have pursued it. But it isn't. There is no way this was going on in Rotherham with no white male involvement.

I dont think anyone is saying there is no white male or female involvment, but this race/culcture/religion did play a significant part.

Page 93 of the report:
One senior officer suggested that some influential Pakistani-heritage councillors in Rotherham had acted as barriers.
Several councillors interviewed believed that by opening up these issues they could be 'giving oxygen' to racist perspectives that might in turn attract extremist political groups and threaten community cohesion. To some extent this concern was valid, with the apparent targeting of the town by groups such as the English Defence League. The Deputy Council Leader (2011-2014) from the Pakistani-heritage community was clear that he had not understood the scale of the CSE problem in Rotherham until 2013. He then disagreed with colleague elected members on the way to approach it. He had advocated taking the issue 'head on' but had been overruled. He was one of the elected members who said they thought the criminal convictions in 2010 were 'a one-off, isolated case', and not an example of a more deep-rooted problem of Pakistani-heritage perpetrators targeting young white girls.
This was at best naïve, and at worst ignoring a politically inconvenient truth."

from a BBC report:

Research conducted by the Child Exploitation and Online Protection Centre (Ceop) on "localised grooming" - where children have been groomed and sexually exploited by an offender having first met in a public place - looked at 1,217 offenders.

The findings, published last year, found 30% of offenders - 367 - were white. Some 28% were Asian, of whom 11 were Bangladeshi, 45 were Pakistani and 290 were described as "Asian Other".

So, 30% respectively for white abusers and Asian abusers, who represent 87% and 8% of the UK respectively. This means - cold hard facts - that Asians were disproportionately more involved in grooming offenses. It isn't being racist to acknowledge it, it needs addressing.

Wink, does this refer to convicted offenders? I'm thinking there may have been some bias in the processes leading to convictions.

I know some of CEOP's data comes from survivor interviews - if that's the case, your quoted proportions may be accurate. If it comes from convictions, I don't trust the data.

If this was solely an asian male crime the police would have pursued it.

You make know sense here.

But it isn't. There is no way this was going on in Rotherham with no white male involvement.

How are you so sure? I think you are making assumptions here and disregarding the evidence and victim testimonies.

Of course the main reason action wasn't taken was classism and misogyny by police and Social Services. I have witnessed so much of this from even female police and SWs.
But the 'not wanting to be seen as racist' thing was a factor as well. Especially in Rotherham. If you had some local knowledge of the history and issues in this town you may realise why.

It is really annoying me, people posting from their middle class home in Surrey or America or where ever thinking they know all about this case and similar ones, while refusing to listen to people who actually live there or have been through it.
By having a knee jerk reaction of shouting racism you are actually proving the point of people you disagree with.

People are being extremely naive if they think there is no cultural factor involved in this particular case of CSE in Rotherham (not Rochdale).
Of course there is organised child abuse by all races, religions, cultures but this type in Rotherham and many other mostly nothern towns has its own particular reasons.

I thinks some people are really misunderstanding the particular problems in these towns. They have no idea. It is different from other scandals, such as the BBC, catholic church and childrdns homes scandals and should be treated differently.

I come from a Muslim background and have stayed with family many times in some of these towns. There is no doubt at all in my mind that this particular type of CSE, in these particular places has very strong cultural/religious factor.

The situation and segregation is so bad there that it is hard to believe. So I guess that is why some of you just do not understand at all.

People who live there, women who live there, children who live there, have been shouting about it for a long, long time and have not been listened to at all. They were not listened to because of their class and because of the race factor. And they are STILL not being listened to, not even on MN.

If some people really can't see that there is a hugecultural factor in this type of CSE in these places then there are in denial or have no real clue what they are fucking talking about.
Listen to the people that live their and haved lived through it. They are not lying and they are not mistaken because they are racist.

Wake up and stop being so naive and ignorant.

thank you Red Shifter

Of course it makes sense if there was absolutely no chance of an investigation exposing some of their colleagues in law/police/council don't you think they would have wanted to secure convictions I am not saying its not a race issue I am saying it is not the sole issue. Any councillors police etc who turned a blind eye are complicit

there is organised child abuse by all races, religions, cultures

Yes.
There is organised child abuse by Asians.
There is organised child abuse by churchmen.
There is organised child abuse by children's homes.
There is organised child abuse by teachers & activity leaders.
There is organised child abuse by Africans.
There is organised child abuse by the white working class.
There is organised child abuse by the middle classes.
There is organised child abuse by aristocrats & millionaires.
There is organised child abuse by Eastern Europeans.
There is organised child abuse by politicians.
There is organised child abuse by celebrities.

These groups interact, trafficking children between them.

It's pretty silly to suppose that you'd find an even distribution of all types everywhere. Clearly, you will find more politician abusers around London and more Asian abusers in places with high Asian populations. You'll find the most abusive children's facilities clustered under the most corrupt managements. Middle-class abusers cluster around golf clubs and business societies. Straightforward, really, isn't it.

Any councillors police etc who turned a blind eye are complicit

YYYYY!

Of course the race issue was only one factor and possibly the smallest factor in the disgusting incompetence of the police and social services.

But when it comes to the actual offenders (in this type of CSE) race/culture/religion is by far the biggest (if not the only) factor.

wink pointed out some CEOPS data and makes a good point but if we could see the data from a town like Rotherham (very few convictions I know but we should believe victim testimony, they are not lying) the figures would not just be disproportionate to the racial make up of the town, they would be nearly 100% to one group.

Unless the chav sluts children are lying of course. Which some posters hundreds or thousands of miles away must think.

I've not read the reports - I need to limit my intake of this stuff - but isn't it the case that girls were taken to other towns (Oxford was mentioned) to be abused by men of assorted colours?

You will get the operations being run by specific groups according to the operators' nature - see above - but actual abusers come in all shapes & forms. In Rotherham, a lot of the organised crime is run by Asian men. In Sarf London, for eg, a lot of it's run by men of Caribbean heritage. In Jersey, it's run by Jersey men. That's just logistics.

Garlic Augustus, even accounting for high Pakistani populations in places like Rotherham, Pakistani men are still significantly over represented in that particular type of gang driven CSE. I realise we must not fall into the trap of stereotyping all child abusers as Asian muslim,but I don't think there is a real risk of that. As redshifter has outlined, there are very real cultural and social reasons why CSE is a problem in that population. The appropriate reaction is not to shy away from this difficult conclusion, but to tackle it head on.

redshifter, you make a good point about the women of these communities shouting but not being heard.

On the other hand, muslim friends talk openly about their boys 'sowing their oats' with white girls to get experience / get it out of their system, then settling down within their own community/ethnic background.

A '"don't shit on your own doorstep" approach by the women confirms the male view that white girls are 'fair game' for use'em and dump'em activity .....

It's pretty silly to suppose that you'd find an even distribution of all types everywhere. Clearly, you will find more politician abusers around London and more Asian abusers in places with high Asian populations. You'll find the most abusive children's facilities clustered under the most corrupt managements. Middle-class abusers cluster around golf clubs and business societies.

Yes. And when we find abuse by catholic priests was very prevalent we can discuss the many reasons why and admit their may have been cultural an d religious reasons why it was so bad and why their wa a cover up etc.
Also when we find that in certain northern towns there is a totally disproportionate make up of offenders we should be able to discuss the cultural and religious reasons behind it.

Straight forward really.

Isn't it.

PS this is, so far, a really reasoned and grown-up discussion about a touchy subject, well done MN-ers! I'm off to a meeting now but shall pop back in later.

No, I'm saying it's NOT culture related but LOGISTICS. If you trade in something, aren't you likely to find your core business group develops among people fairly like yourself? It's just easier, when you already have the contacts & background knowledge with one another.

... sorry, but my own post just made me imagine a shockingly nefarious trade in illegal cupcakes! As you were ...

I agree garlic I am sure when further regions/councils are exposed those involved with represent the local demographic.

Phew Thanks, Noddy.

will

wink1970

Yes. I agree. The attitudes of the women in these communities really makes me sick. To me they are classist and racist. I have with spent time some of them. (Relations). They really did look down on certain types of young girls.

Also I agree with other posters on the misogynistic attitudes of the social workers, police etc. Was one of the biggest problems.

Having some local knowledge, I know that the majority of social workers involved were women and so were many of the police.

Crazy but true.

I do think that race played some factor.

But I also think that for those in authority who ignored this, even when families were screaming it from the rooftops, it is more acceptable to try and wriggle out of any guilt by saying "I was scared of being seen to be racist" than "I thought the children were common chavvy streetwise sluts who didn't deserve any help and knew exactly what they were doing."