in thinking breastfeeding needn't mean martyring yourself?

[kentishgirl]

Hi - sorry to start yet another bf thread, and I realise this might be contentious, but so many of the bf threads on here make me look like . I realise I'm probably a bit out of date with current thinking on all this, but bf sounds like so much hard work these days...and a little bit of me thinks some bf mums kind of enjoy being a martyr and it's competitive about how hard and such a sacrifice etc etc. This is not about mums who find it physically difficult or impossible to bf.

I bf in the 80s for 11 months. Babe had the odd bottle of formula if I wasn't around.

What puzzles me a bit is this stuff, that I read about on here a lot. Is this the reality now of bfing for everyone/most mums, or is this a minority who just talk about it a lot?

Cluster feeding - having a baby whacked on to you nearly non stop for weeks. Er...this wasn't 'a thing' when I bf. Sometimes babies were hungrier than other times. But no one sat there constantly bfing. Feeding on demand was a thing - but flexibly and not to the exclusion of being able to live a normal life. It just meant it wasn't feeding strictly to the clock. You expected to feed roughly every 2/3 hours within a couple of weeks once feeding was established.

If a baby cried, then it wasn't assumed to be hunger. You'd think 'well I only fed him half an hour ago', check nappy, play, distract, give water, is baby tired etc. It was accepted that there are times that babies just plain old cry. It's an easy solution to pop them on the breast, but it wasn't seen as their really needing a feed.

Longer and bigger bfs - it sounds like babies are on and off the breast all the time for a few mouthfuls these days. We used to do a good feed, if baby started nodding off or losing interest, you'd tap their cheek/stimulate them to get them feeding again. So you'd have a more 'normal' spacing between feeds, they didn't on the whole get hungry again a short time later.

Is it just me, or just the threads I read, that make it sound like every time a bf baby squeaks these days it's straight on to the breast, and there are women who literally have no life of their own or time of their own for months on end, because of this? And isn't this awfully off-putting to new mums about starting to breastfeed?

I know more mums start breastfeeding these days, and that's great. But so many drop out and switch to formula instead, whereas I think in the past, a higher proportion of those who started breastfeeding, continued with it. Is the new 'baby led' attitude to bf a bit of a double edged sword because of this? More try, but it's harder, so more have to give up?

"Certainly there is disapproval insinuated by many breastfeeding advocate groups towards any formula use. To women already feeling insecure, even unspoken disapproval can be devastating and render them unable to believe what's actually being said."

Do you not think that sometime just simply knowing that a person or an organisation supports the view that formula use can be problematic for breastfeeding women (and perhaps has expressed this opinion casually in conversation, or within the context of a class) can result in a mother feeling stigmatised when actually no disapproval has been implied or insinuated.

Honestly I think the whole area is hideously fraught and maybe the best thing we can say to all women is 'own your feeding decisions'.

Madrigals I'm guessing it was my post you're referring to, with regard to LLL. (Which I certainly think does more far good than harm, by the way, I'm not opposed to them by any stretch of the imagination.) Somebody decided to provide information and services in Spanish as well as English, that didn't happen by accident it happened because Spanish speaking Hispanics were being specifically targeted. I didn't mean anything ominous or disapproving by it, even if their approach was not quite as successful as they meant it to be due to cultural miscommunication.

LittleBearPad, NCT bfcs do 2 compulsory CPD/ inservice training days every year, they have several hours compulsory supervision every year, they are observed in practice (I think every three years but not sure), they complete an annual return which is the equivalent of your 'professional declaration' - it's several pages long. We are also required to do peer supervision - in practice, regular meetings with colleagues and/or regular other forms of contact like local groups and email groups. The training is to diploma level. Further training enables one to be a supervisor, a mentor, a peer supporter trainer etc etc.

This is a very high level of training, support and CPD for people who are mostly volunteers.

NCT also monitors the experiences of parents who use our services, by surveys and specific qualitative research.

I am not sure what the professional requirements of HVs and midwives are, but I know they exist!

My feeling is that NCT scores highly on what happens when things go wrong. With something like 20,000 bf contacts a year (we count them!), and countless others in drop ins, you are going to get some which fall below an acceptable standard. If even 1 per cent of contacts leave a mother unhappy or unhelped, that's still 200 mothers and babies let down. But we have a complaints system, which in the past few years has become more and more robust. If someone complains about something, then they will be responded to.

I think your question might be 'but what happens when they have been told rubbish, but don't know it's rubbish, and think it's correct?' Obviously, the woman may not complain then or even realise she has been let down. I am not sure what we can do about that, other than ensure our CPD is adhered to, and supervision is good.

All people who work for these organisations - LLL, NCT, ABM,NHS have regular and ongoing training and practice updates.

Personally, I think that people don't always hear what is being said in relation to feeding because it conflicts powerfully with their cultural or personal expectations. I suspect it's not uncommon for people to construct their own stories around their feeding experiences to help themselves make sense of how they feel and that these stories don't necessarily reflect an accurate picture of what was said and done by the other people a mother comes into contact with in her feeding journey.

littlebear, when i was a new mother my HV advice made me cry (insisting on 20 minute feeds all the time when my DD only wanted 10 or 15, and also insisting on a really rigid feeding positiong)

but when my DD was 2.5 weeks I went to my local Breastfeeding Cafe at the children's centre. my first trip out my myself post c-section, cried all the way there, but i am glad i made it as their advice was invaluable and just one week later I was feeding at the bus stop and feeling much more confident

i think sometimes if the advice feels wrong, it is wrong...

"and just one week later I was feeding at the bus stop"

Must have been good as this is the new mum equivalent of kite surfing!

Sitting down, though... took another couple of months for standing up feeding...

mini, you say " I suspect it's not uncommon for people to construct their own stories around their feeding experiences to help themselves make sense of how they feel and that these stories don't necessarily reflect an accurate picture of what was said and done by the other people a mother comes into contact with in her feeding journey."

That comes dangerously close to saying 'I don't believe it when mothers say they were told xyz or they were judged.' That makes me feel uncomfortable because although I understand you are referring to the way all human beings may 'rewrite' their powerful experiences and come up with an inaccurate memory of them, it is still up to the support/help services to accommodate that. It means phrasing what we say carefully, being led by the woman, being aware that she may even think silence is a judgment, and that a simple remark can be misinterpreted.

Of course people's memories are 're-writes'. This is well known - for example, war historians know that the personal experiences of people who were victims of the Blitz, or who actually came under fire in a battle, can be way off. Stressful or fearful experiences affect recall. If we feel judged or victimised in some way, if we feel under pressure, if we feel scared, or angry, or unsure, we can't always assess what 'really' happened.

That's one of the reasons (one of many reasons) the vol orgs concerned with bf support emphasise the power of listening to the 'lived experience' of women facing a feeding difficulty, and helping them work towards a solution that they can own and that they feel comfortable with.

Having said that, I know there are clod-hopping 'helpers' out there who manage to say and do the wrong things :(

Who should offer bf support? What should they say?

Hmm, dh is a paediatrician he thinks the most successful Breast feeders on the antenatal wards non English speaking Asian women as lots of cultural tradition of bf, mix fed happily and couldn't understand what the bf advisors were saying!

munchkin, Asian women are more likely to breastfeed than Anglo-Saxons. There is a cultural tradition of withholding colostrum, which has -ve health effects but which does not seem to impact the decision to breastfeed. It is also true that speaking English may appear to be a disadvantage, but this is prob because it indicates closeness to ethnic roots and cultural expectations not because it means they can't understand the bf advisors (see my point about the research showing that the more recent the immigration, the more likely to breastfeed). Why are they bf on the antenatal wards, BTW? Do you mean postnatal?

Don't understand your question about who should offer bf support and what they should say, sorry.

Tiktok you are right that new mothers are uniquely sensitive, often very confused, and that the knowledge of this should shape the way hp communicate with them and offer support.

My mum never breast fed. She thought it was weird just as me, my auntie and my sister do as "nipples are a turn on when sucked" haha!
Anyway, my mum knew that we'd need feeding every 2 hours or so, so she made bottles so we'd never be caught short if we were out for longer than two hours
a lot of bf mums I know always go off as a lot of people don't like seeing it, as they cover up or do it discreetly. No one needs to breastfeed all the time and in company as a baby doesn't need constant milk. every 2-3 hours is fine and most mums don't stay out for that long with baby. the ones I know don't anyway

Thanks Tiktok it's helpful to know what the NCT do and Mini for the others.

I can see that you may think Mini that people misremember advice but frankly in the circumstances (new, non-feeding baby, possibly traumatic delivery, beginnings of PND) is it surprising. Everything is new and pretty scary! Plus if it's midwives, HVs they do have a tendency to run off after 10/15 minutes (during which time they've also weighed baby, checked stitches, done heel pricks etc). I know they have little choice as they are very busy but it doesn't help!

She thought it was weird just as me, my auntie and my sister do as "nipples are a turn on when sucked"

Really?! So you think bf mums are sitting there getting turned on while feeding?

Babies don't suck the nipple. If they did it would fucking hurt.

I meant post natal.

My question about who is best placed was reiterating one placed higher on the thread about this, with my comment below.

I think I acknowledged a cultural tradition but I think my observed women getting stressed and confused with differing advice and saw those left to get on with it with family support doing better.

Just his observation......

Totally, munchkin - family support from people who have breastfed and who are just relaxed and happy about it is a great start :)

Crayola . What an odd point of view. And how nice that your family share their sex lives so openly.

Indeed. I was going to comment on the main topic but I'm still too a-boggle at I CAN'T BREASTFEED IT'S TOO SEXY.