in thinking breastfeeding needn't mean martyring yourself?

[kentishgirl]

Hi - sorry to start yet another bf thread, and I realise this might be contentious, but so many of the bf threads on here make me look like . I realise I'm probably a bit out of date with current thinking on all this, but bf sounds like so much hard work these days...and a little bit of me thinks some bf mums kind of enjoy being a martyr and it's competitive about how hard and such a sacrifice etc etc. This is not about mums who find it physically difficult or impossible to bf.

I bf in the 80s for 11 months. Babe had the odd bottle of formula if I wasn't around.

What puzzles me a bit is this stuff, that I read about on here a lot. Is this the reality now of bfing for everyone/most mums, or is this a minority who just talk about it a lot?

Cluster feeding - having a baby whacked on to you nearly non stop for weeks. Er...this wasn't 'a thing' when I bf. Sometimes babies were hungrier than other times. But no one sat there constantly bfing. Feeding on demand was a thing - but flexibly and not to the exclusion of being able to live a normal life. It just meant it wasn't feeding strictly to the clock. You expected to feed roughly every 2/3 hours within a couple of weeks once feeding was established.

If a baby cried, then it wasn't assumed to be hunger. You'd think 'well I only fed him half an hour ago', check nappy, play, distract, give water, is baby tired etc. It was accepted that there are times that babies just plain old cry. It's an easy solution to pop them on the breast, but it wasn't seen as their really needing a feed.

Longer and bigger bfs - it sounds like babies are on and off the breast all the time for a few mouthfuls these days. We used to do a good feed, if baby started nodding off or losing interest, you'd tap their cheek/stimulate them to get them feeding again. So you'd have a more 'normal' spacing between feeds, they didn't on the whole get hungry again a short time later.

Is it just me, or just the threads I read, that make it sound like every time a bf baby squeaks these days it's straight on to the breast, and there are women who literally have no life of their own or time of their own for months on end, because of this? And isn't this awfully off-putting to new mums about starting to breastfeed?

I know more mums start breastfeeding these days, and that's great. But so many drop out and switch to formula instead, whereas I think in the past, a higher proportion of those who started breastfeeding, continued with it. Is the new 'baby led' attitude to bf a bit of a double edged sword because of this? More try, but it's harder, so more have to give up?

Agreed. Like the dummy, the breast becomes a habit. Just space feeding out whether it's bottle or breast.

Ps OP I think bf mothers need support for the fantastic start they are giving their child, not the unhelpful snidey criticism contained in your post.

From the study that Tiktok linked to:

"Latina women have breastfeeding initiation rates
of 73%, but only 30% are breastfeeding at 6
months
? Healthy People 2010 goals is 50% at 6 months
? Mothers with lower socioeconomics status and
those enrolled WIC have even lower initiation
rates of 53% initiation and 21% duration at 6
months of age"

Right - I need to stop posting on this subject as I've been warned by MN HQ that they see my posts on this subject are 'personal and attacking' and they'll ban me if I continue.

...and I think that you enjoy creating a stir.

Who was that directed at?

Physiology can be divorced from culture to a very large extent. We're all human, regardless of culture. Which means that our bodies all work in more or less the same way.

The query was: "You seem very certain that women can mixed feed from when - quite early on? - and still manage to breastfeed for as long as they had originally intended, given the right support."
I provided an example of a population in which long term mixed feeding was successful, given the right support, which is exactly what was asked for.

The culture around breastfeeding in the US 19 years ago, when my daughter was born, is not what it is now I'm sure, so I'm in no position to compare that aspect. I can remember no pressure at all that I "had" to breastfeed, and even after I said I wanted to I got exactly one (useless to me) flying visit from a lactation consultant. I remember my mum getting more practical support in England in the late 70s when she had my sister.

I do think the fact that a rigid 'breastfeeding only' approach can even deter women in a breastfeeding friendly culture is worth noting though.
An all or nothing message leads people, not surprisingly, to believe that it is an all or nothing proposition. When it's not.

If it was at the OP - well, there's a reason people get addicted to AIBU, and that's because it's lively here. Lots of people post here to get a vigorous debate going and lots of controversial opinions.

"I provided an example of a population in which long term mixed feeding was successful, given the right support, which is exactly what was asked for."

Ninja - the studies TikTok links to don't support your assertion that mixed feeding is as unproblematic in Hispanic communities as you present it. They seem to show a fairly steep drop off of breastfeeding rates.

"I do think the fact that a rigid 'breastfeeding only' approach can even deter women in a breastfeeding friendly culture is worth noting though."

I'm not sure where this idea comes from that there is some official line among health professionals involved in breastfeeding education of 'all or nothing'. I don't see that reflected in the teaching of midwives.

I suspect that people often don't always accurately retain what they are told in relation to breastfeeding, whether before or after they give birth. I think people's emotions can be so strong, and their anxieties and preconceptions may distort what they hear. So, 'We recommend exclusive breastfeeding if possible until breastfeeding is properly established' may be remembered or translated in someone's head to: 'You shouldn't/can't mixed feed', and 'Introducing formula reduces the protection a baby gets from breastfeeding' becomes 'Using formula renders breastfeeding pointless'. 'Nipple shields aren't routinely recommended' becomes 'nipple shields are worthless and you shouldn't use them'. I think it's hard for people delivering breastfeeding education to try to be as clear as possible (because parents are already baffled by an onslaught of information) and really make sure they are highlighting the stuff parents need to know, but without giving simplistic answers to questions that will later be translated into absolutes by parents who are in a bit of an emotional state when they are struggling with aspects of feeding and unsure of what to do.

It would be interesting to see those studies about "Latinas" broken down into country or culture of origin. Are they only Mexican/Mexican-Americans? Or do the statistics include Tejanas? Puerto Ricans? South Americans, either including or excluding indigenous groups? I have no idea if there's a difference in approach from one subgroup to another, and I'd be curious.

Ninja, you misunderstand my statement about divorcing physiology from cultural and social aspects.

Of course women and babies are more or less physiologically the same, across populations - and lactation 'works' in the same way, just as we breathe or digest or whatever in the same way.

My point was that saying 'X happens there and so it can happen here, too' is to ignore the powerful social and cultural aspects.

You also accept that, when you say it would be interesting to see a breakdown of different sub groups, to see if the origins make a difference. I agree.

In the UK, there is some research into the bf patterns of British Asians. The more recent the immigration, the longer the breastfeeding.

Mixed feeding wasn't an option for my dairy intolerant babies.

I probably would seem a martyr to outsiders but I was dealing with tongue tie and reflux and didn't want my children to be on hydrolysed formula when I knew that, given their problems digesting cows milk, my milk was the best thing for them.

Our culture is geared towards slotting baby in to suit our 24 hour me me me way of life. Bf doesn't always work that way. It isn't always convenient or easy. But that's life!

I think you'll find that is the aim of health professionals pretty much across the board. And you know there are vastly more mums who are advised unnecessarily to supplement IMO

My HV and the NCT "counsellor" both told me if I added a bottle that would end bf. Both offered no support unless I was prepared to ebf. HV refused to discuss ff.On what basis other than your opinion do you think your second sentence is true?

^Latina women have breastfeeding initiation rates
of 73%, but only 30% are breastfeeding at 6
months^
Yet Hispanic women still have a higher rate of breastfeeding, overall, than non-Hispanic White or non-Hispanic Black mothers in the US. In the 2010 data I found, it's 80% initiation rates and 45% at 6 months.
Figures among all groups will be lower for young or low income women. I believe the same is true in the UK.

I'm not sure where this idea comes from that there is some official line among health professionals involved in breastfeeding education of 'all or nothing'. I don't see that reflected in the teaching of midwives.
If the message is not getting through correctly then the onus is on the messenger to change the way they present it, surely?
Certainly there is disapproval insinuated by many breastfeeding advocate groups towards any formula use. To women already feeling insecure, even unspoken disapproval can be devastating and render them unable to believe what's actually being said.

tiktok I think you and I are more or less on the same page. "Given the right support" was the key phrase for me, and I suspect you'd agree with that being a deciding factor.

Yep, Ninja :)

Mini, I can see what you were trying to say now. It clicked for me with what tiktok said "The UK pays lip service to breastfeeding".

We are a formula feeding culture, as is much of Europe. It's interesting how things vary - I was talking to a friend who is about to travel to Spain on holiday and was wondering whether to take her nursing cover or not. We did some (google ) research and found that although there is a very high rate of initiation in Spain most people stop by 3-4 months and early weaning (compared to the UK) is the norm. But then they tend to spoon feed to a much more advanced age than we do.

But I also agree with Ninja - because the UK is a FF culture it is imperative to be supportive of both BF and FF, otherwise mothers feel alienated. I found this in a LLL group I attended. Although DS never had any formula and only had expressed milk in a bottle about three times ever and I fed him until he self weaned I found some aspects of the group difficult - there was one mother who was happily using nipple shields and the leader was very emphatic about the need to wean off them, not giving information as to why she might want to wean off them, just "Well you really should you know". It's offputting and it probably felt a bit like a slap in the face to that mother who had struggled and was pleased to have found a solution that was working for her. To be told "Well you shouldn't be doing that!" I don't remember if she came back to the group.

I also remember sitting in a children's centre and a mum was waiting to speak to a health visitor, she was saying that her baby was three months old and hungry all the time and she was worried she didn't have enough milk and what should she do. She didn't want to give formula. She asked about solids and the HV said oooh no, much too early. She was desperately asking for advice and all the health visitor could do was to pat her arm and say "It's hard isn't it, I know." I wanted to point her towards the BF support group but felt quite awkward as she was upset. I probably would do now :(

I like that article and it matches up to other things I've read in the past.

Phaedra - did this happen recently? If the NCT counsellor and HV actually said 'if you give a bottle you can't carry on breastfeeding' and refused to give you any other help then they should have been reported to their organisations/bodies.

I know midwives/lactation consultants/maternity support workers. I have sat in on many breastfeeding clinics and observed breastfeeding classes and I have never seen anyone blatantly give totally incorrect and non-evidenced based advice and information as you say has happened to you.

If you are insistent that this is exactly what was said then all I can say is that it was not sanctioned by their organisations.

Phaedra, agreeing with mini here.....if this was said to you ('if you give a bottle of formula you won't be able to continue bf' or the equivalent) then of course you can follow it up. I am an NCT bfc - we have a system whereby something like this would be investigated and if necessary, the bfc concerned would be contacted.

It's absolutely not part of a bfc's scope to say this - not just the dogmatic tone, but the information, which is wrong.

Just to add: it is also not part of an NCT bfc's role to refuse support, help or info to someone not exclusively breastfeeding. If the NCT bfc said she would not help if you were not excl bf, then I would be i) astonished because I know my colleagues and I know our training and I know our policies ii) pretty cross that someone was letting women down in this way

If this happened, tell NCT.

The thing is Mini and Tiktok how are new mothers, who are probably pretty shell-shocked, especially first time mothers, meant to know that what the midwife/HV/NCT bod is saying is cobblers. They're meant to be the experts.

Don't these organisations have a responsibility to ensure messages are getting across properly to all the people who work/volunteer for them. I have a professional qualification, I have to do continuing professional declarations every year citing all the training I've done. Is there something similar for bf education to keep people as it were 'on message'. I'm genuinely interested honestly.