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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to start a new Scottish Indyref thread?

999 replies

FannyFifer · 25/08/2014 22:28

Round 2 folks, ding ding!

OP posts:
ChelsyHandy · 26/08/2014 11:20

FannyFifer Ah yes the rich landowners with their No signs. Wonder why that could be. A high percentage of farmers rent their land from said Landowners they don't own it.

Is there anyone left in Scotland that you actually approve of FannyFifer? You appear to detest rather a high percentage of Scots.

FannyFifer · 26/08/2014 11:23

I have relatives who run a farm & are treated horrendously by the land owner. In a tied cottage, no safe water. House falling down so I will admit to be absolutely biased on this matter as it's rather close to home.

OP posts:
ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 26/08/2014 11:23

Also, would it be possible to have less of the emphasis on deprived area status of Scotland in agricultural terms?

Around 85% of Scotland is classified as Less Favoured Area. This is an EU classification which recognises natural and geographic disadvantage.
www.nfus.org.uk/farming-facts

We have to be realistic about our assets.

LatinForTelly · 26/08/2014 11:24

Thanks, Toadinthehole. It seems like another thing an independent Scotland would have to cross its fingers and hope for.

StatisticallyChallenged · 26/08/2014 11:25

It seems anyone who disagrees is best dismissed as rich, fearful, selfish or all three by fannyfifer. You know that rich and bad are not synonyms?

WildThong · 26/08/2014 11:27

irnbroo who is this "us"?
Not me I assure you.

Radio Scotland had the two Blairs on this morning, post debate. Strictly no interrupting or shouting down or talking over allowed. What a difference to be able to actually hear what they were saying and for each to be given time to make a point or answer a question. Although I think that in a debate with those rules Mr Salmond would be like a fish out of water. No desks to thump, no one to witness as he presents his back to his opponent, no nodding dugs behind him egging him on....

ChelsyHandy · 26/08/2014 11:28

FannyFifer I have relatives who run a farm & are treated horrendously by the land owner. In a tied cottage, no safe water. House falling down so I will admit to be absolutely biased on this matter as it's rather close to home

What a surprise it is to find that you have relatives living in a Dickens novel. Since SEPA are the scourge of anyone with a private water supply, this strikes me as unusual if it did not emanate from the usual source of such tales of woe. Never mind, since the new legislation was enacted, they will be able to force their landowner to sell them his land, and all will be happy. They might even organise a community buyout using public funds and they can all live happily together on a communal farm.

NCforAye · 26/08/2014 11:30

ItsAllGoingToBeFine

As I understand it isn't it that the crux of the issue with the CAP payments currently - that the UK as a whole is allocated more from the EU due mostly to the large proportion of land in Scotland with Less Favoured Area status, but that Scotland doesn't then get a proportional amount of that funding?

WildThong · 26/08/2014 11:31

And something else which is a personal bugbear is the trend to put a wee trendy 'i' at the start of words. It's more likely to be Scotland (FUK) as in formerly UK. e.g. Macedonia (FYR) when they split from Yugoslavia.

Toadinthehole · 26/08/2014 11:34

Latin

That's right. And while it would be odd if iScotland didn't become an EU member eventually, there really is no justification for Salmond's claims that Scotland would "continue" as an EU member. Legally speaking, the claim is simply baseless.

Likewise, the claim that iScotland would be entitled to a currency union with the rUK and have EU membership is also without justification. It would require the EU giving iScotland some seriously special treatment that individual states generally don't get. Britain has a lot only because it is big and turbulent.

As for not inheriting any UK debt: Salmond is legally quite correct on that one.

LatinForTelly · 26/08/2014 11:35

NCforAye Yes, that's my understanding. But the steps to addressing that through an independent Scotland are long-term and rely on Scotland being part of the EU (see Toadinthehole's post).

And I guess you have to balance that with the alleged over-generosity of the Barnett formula.

ChelsyHandy · 26/08/2014 11:37

This is what the White Paper has to say on the farming sector. It is very vague on how the lost CAP will be paid for in the event of independence. Its also totally unrealistic in its wish of reducing specifically Scottish compliance with European regulations on beasts if it can join the EU. :

"Agriculture Why we need a new approach: Scotland’s agriculture sector underpins the rural economy and our successful food and drink sector. Our farmers and crofters, in their stewardship of Scotland’s land, contribute greatly to our natural heritage, and support our environment and successful tourism sector. Scotland’s diverse agriculture ranges from small crofting enterprises to large intensive livestock and arable farms. Agriculture is also comparatively more important to the Scottish economy than to the UK’s as a whole, and it is distinctive. For instance, about 85 per cent of our land has “less favoured area” status compared with 15 per cent in England298. Scotland is also home to more than one quarter of the UK’s beef herd299. However, Scotland’s farmers and crofters have been repeatedly let down by Westminster governments which have failed to prioritise Scottish farming in domestic policies and, in European negotiations, and have argued and acted against Scotland's interests.
278
Chapter 8 Environment, Rural Scotland, Energy and ResourcesPART 3

The record of UK representation of Scottish Agriculture in Europe The interests of rural Scotland have been repeatedly traded off against other UK priorities in European Union (EU) negotiations where Scotland has no direct voice. Successive Westminster governments have argued for a significant reduction in agricultural support payments, despite Scotland’s already low share of funding and need for support given our geographical and climatic challenges. These payments are vital to ensure our farmers and crofters continue to produce food, deliver environmental benefits and sustain our rural communities. As a result of Westminster not sharing Scottish priorities, Scotland has the third lowest average direct payment per hectare in Europe300. Indeed, in the newly negotiated agricultural subsidies for 2014 to 2020 (Pillar 1 of the Common Agricultural Policy), Scotland will have a lower average rate per hectare than any other member state in Europe and than the rest of the UK301. In November 2013, the Westminster Government chose to disadvantage Scotland further by deciding, despite cross-party opposition in the Scottish Parliament, to distribute across all the countries of the UK over €220 million of agricultural subsidy
279
uplift, received from the EU to promote convergence.The uplift is a direct consequence of Scotland’s lower payments, and should have been used to benefit Scottish farmers who have the lowest per hectare rates. The position is similar when it comes to support for rural development. As part of the UK, Scotland currently receives the lowest average payment rate per hectare of rural development funding in Europe (under Pillar 2 of the Common Agricultural Policy)302. This is because the Westminster Government does not prioritise this support in its negotiations in Europe, despite pressure from the Scottish Government to do so. The UK chose not to join 16 other countries in securing additional rural development funding. This could have provided vital funding for environmental schemes, rural facilities, food businesses and tourism projects, amongst others303. Not only has Westminster failed to negotiate a better deal for Scotland, but our position is getting comparatively worse304. This is something an independent Scottish Government can tackle directly as part of the next CAP negotiations, likely to commence around 2018. There is also the prospect of agricultural support being cut completely if Scotland remains in the UK. Scotland faces the possibility of leaving the EU because of Westminster’s planned in/out European referendum. If there is a vote to leave the EU, Scottish agriculture and our rural industries will no longer be part of the CAP and will be in the hands of a Westminster government with a stated policy of drastically reducing or even ending farm payments. The record of the Westminster Government on domestic agriculture policy Scottish farming not only suffers from poor representation in Europe, but also from Westminster’s failure to prioritise its interests in domestic policy in the areas where Westminster retains control. For example, levy income from livestock reared in Scotland but slaughtered south of the border is used to promote beef, lamb and pork from elsewhere, not Scottish beef, lamb and pork.
280
Chapter 8 Environment, Rural Scotland, Energy and ResourcesPART 3
The Westminster Government also has a poor record on responding to the needs of Scottish rural industries during times of crisis. For example, during spells of severe weather, or in relation to other animal welfare concerns, the UK Department of Transport required extensive and time-consuming lobbying by the industry and the Scottish Government before it agreed to relax rules on drivers’ hours. The Scotland we can create With the powers of independence, and direct representation in Europe, we can secure and grow Scottish agriculture’s place in our society and economy for the future. It is in our national interest that we retain the skills and capacity to produce food on our own land. Scotland’s priorities will be reflected by the actions of our negotiators in Europe, greatly improving our opportunities for funding and to ensure that EU policies are tailored to Scottish circumstances. Ministers in an independent Scotland will also be able to ensure that every department of government works to support rural Scotland when required. In areas where we agree with the Westminster Government, Scotland will be its ally in agriculture negotiations, increasing our combined negotiating strength, both in terms of votes and representation at the negotiating table. With independence, farmers and crofters will continue to receive CAP payments because the budget is already set until 2020. But, crucially, with independence Scotland will qualify for future member state funding increases. The choices open to us As an independent member state of the EU, Scotland will be able to promote directly our economic and social interests and protect our citizens by participating on equal terms with all other member states in EU affairs. Scottish Ministers will also gain direct access to their counterparts in other member states through bilateral meetings, which Westminster currently does not allow for agriculture. As a member state we will have the authority to deal directly with all European institutions and be treated as an equal partner.
281
Common agricultural policy Direct Farming Support (Pillar 1 of CAP): If Scotland had been independent when the latest CAP budget was being decided, we would have benefited from a principle that by 2020 no member state would receive less than an average of €196 per hectare. This would have brought Scotland an extra €1 billion between 2014 and 2020. Rural Development Support (Pillar 2 of CAP): With independence, Scotland will be able to negotiate fairer allocations for rural development – similar to those achieved by many other member states. For example, despite having an area of agricultural land equal to around 25 per cent of that of the UK305, Ireland negotiated an allocation of almost €2 billion for rural development – almost 85 per cent of the total allocation for the UK306. Finland negotiated a €600 million uplift307. This demonstrates what independent countries similar in size to Scotland can achieve within EU negotiations when they are able to reflect their own needs and priorities. Our priorities for action The Scottish Government firmly believes that the only government capable of properly representing Scotland’s interests in the EU decision-making process is a government elected by, and directly accountable to, the people of Scotland. If we form that government we will: ?? provide a direct voice for Scotland’s farmers in Europe, and Scotland’s agriculture sector will be a priority for Scotland’s engagement with the EU. In the next round of CAP negotiations, Scotland’s interests will be directly represented. An independent Scotland can negotiate the best possible deal for Scotland’s farmers, crofters and rural communities. ?? use Scotland’s farming levies to promote Scottish produce. With independence, all levies for livestock raised in Scotland can be used to promote Scottish agriculture, not the produce of our competitors.
282
Chapter 8 Environment, Rural Scotland, Energy and ResourcesPART 3
?? reduce the burden of European livestock regulations. We will argue that Europe’s regulatory burden should be reduced in recognition of Scotland’s good animal health record and disease-free status. ?? support new entrants into agriculture. We will investigate how we can use fiscal measures to provide opportunities for new entrants to agriculture.

Toadinthehole · 26/08/2014 11:37

Although I'm anti-independence, I quite like using "iScotland". BTW, I'm told the "FYR" bit is because there is a Greek state of Macedonia, and the Greeks wanted to avoid any implicit territorial claims.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 26/08/2014 11:39

It's more likely to be Scotland (FUK) Grin

As I understand it isn't it that the crux of the issue with the CAP payments currently - that the UK as a whole is allocated more from the EU due mostly to the large proportion of land in Scotland with Less Favoured Area status, but that Scotland doesn't then get a proportional amount of that funding?

That's part of it. One of the other issues is that EU negotiators of course try to get the best deal for the UK as a whole. Because Scots make up such a small percentage of the population they are obviously not as important in the grand scheme of things.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 26/08/2014 11:40

Thanks for the c&p Chelsy Smile Any chance of a link to the original so I can read with formatting in place?

BakerStreetSaxRift · 26/08/2014 11:41

ChelsyHandy Grin

I must say I'm liking you more and more!

So glad to see some intelligent, reasoned facts on this thread.

Toadinthehole · 26/08/2014 11:42

EU agricultural policy is all daft anyway. It's all a massive rort at the taxpayer's expense allowing uneconomic farms to hide behind huge tariff barriers.

ChelsyHandy · 26/08/2014 11:42

This is a link to a map showing arable land in Scotland. Its important to note that this does not show all arable land used for growing crops in Scotland but land classed as at least grade 3. If you are Scottish and can't point to the areas of land farmed arably on this map in Caithness for example then you don't know your own country or its history. The amount of work it takes to improve land and to render it suitable for even one crop a year in the far north really is commendable. Caithness has historically been known for providing oats and bere barley to other parts of Scotland. Obviously there is quite a lot of land in Scotland that isn't suitable for arable production, or has never been improved sufficiently to do so (another issue entirely), but that's the same with many countries, including the UK as a whole, which has a high proportion of upland areas.

Unfortunatley, current Scottish planning policy has seen a lot of the best farmland in the central belt being used for building housing estates on, which seems short sighted to me. There is nothing in the White Paper to suggest a better approach or even that this is taken into consideration by government in Scotland at all.

www.macaulay.ac.uk/explorescotland/lca-arable.html

Snapespotions · 26/08/2014 11:45

Salmond did us proud last night. What a man! Great debate

What a man indeed! I thought he was vile!

If you thought it was a great debate last night, and that Salmond's performance was something to be proud of, then the cultural differences between Scotland and rUK are clearly greater than I had realised.

I was left quite cold by the debate last night. I thought Darling was crap, and Salmond was just an arse. What shocked me most, though, was the hostility among some of the audience members towards rUK, the way in which they lapped up Salmond's sound bites, and the ease with which they blamed Westminster for everything that isn't perfect in Scotland.

The Scots I have talked to so far have all been quite measured, balanced and rational when talking about independence, including those who are planning to vote yes. What I saw last night was quite different, and frankly a little shocking.

There is clearly great strength of feeling in the yes camp, and I respect that. The Scots are certainly entitled to self-determination. However, I was really saddened by the tribal nature of the debate last night. I now really hope that Scotland does vote yes, because I don't see any way back from where we are now.

ChelsyHandy · 26/08/2014 11:46

www.macaulay.ac.uk/explorescotland/lca-arable.html

Just google it. I assume since you are such a proponent of Yes ideology, you would be extremely familiar with the White Paper, which you would already have read several times. You seriously are saying you cannot find it on your own without someone pandering to you with a wee linky?

ChelsyHandy · 26/08/2014 11:46

Sorry, that was to Itsallgoingtobefine, who cannot find the White Paper on Scottish Independence on the internet.

Toadinthehole · 26/08/2014 11:47

Sounds like the debate was Wholly Rude!

Sorry - I expect that quip's been made hundreds of times before, but I had to make it.

ChelsyHandy · 26/08/2014 11:49

How is a grassroots website propoganda but the White Paper isn't?! Genuine, slightly bemused question. (I'd have thought if you didn't trust anything said by ordinary Yes supporters you certainly wouldn't trust the White Paper...)

Like it or not (and I'm not a fan) the White Paper is a formal government source. In academic terms and in terms of what evidence is admissible in court, this distinction is important. It is published and verifiable by an independent source, unlike for example Wing's "Wee Book" which is self-published.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 26/08/2014 11:50

Unfortunatley, current Scottish planning policy has seen a lot of the best farmland in the central belt being used for building housing estates

Do you have the stats for that? Google has failed me Sad

grovel · 26/08/2014 11:50

From yesterday's Telegraph. Is there any truth in it?

Both Spain and Belgium would block an independent Scotland's application to join the European Union, a former president of the EU's finance council has predicted.
Ruairi Quinn, an Irish politician, said the secessionist movements in both countries meant it was "highly probable" their parliaments would vote against Scotland joining.
He also predicted that the country would have to adopt the euro as the price for gaining full EU membership after a Yes vote.