to start a new Scottish Indyref thread?

[FannyFifer]

Round 2 folks, ding ding!

What I saw last night was quite different, and frankly a little shocking.

I recommend you stay away from Facebook and Twitter then, because some people there seem determined to tear the country apart. I think there are still people having intelligent discussions and debate, but there's definitely been an increase in the ugly side as the date gets nearer and tensions rise.

I now really hope that Scotland does vote yes, because I don't see any way back from where we are now. I still think a No vote is the best option for Scotland and the UK, but frankly however it goes the country is a mass of resentment and anger now, and I don't see how we come back from it whatever happens.

Are you for real, there was actually a mumsnetter in similar circumstances to what I have described, if anyone can remember her name, u should read her threads if you think I am joking about the conditions people on these estates are left in.

I have friends & family in various occupations & industries in Scotland, from a wide variety of backgrounds, not all of them are voting yes either.

How anyone could be proud of salmond's behaviour as a representation of Scotland I do not know. That was a bloody disgrace.

Hi Itsallgoingtobefine I'm not a world expert on all matters, nor a paid advisor to you, so I suggest you enrol in a course if you are interested. Alternatively, open your eyes, if indeed you are in Scotland, and see whats being built on on those very areas of the map highlighted as prime agricultural land in east central Scotland.

How anyone can live in a country and be so unaware of what is going on around them, I don't know. You are able to go outdoors I take it, and are not limited in some way, and I'm not being really ignorant in suggesting this?

Both Spain and Belgium would block an independent Scotland's application to join the European Union, a former president of the EU's finance council has predicted.

It's impossible to know. The only thing that's certain is that they would need to find some fig leaf to hide the real reason for their objection. If the Belgian government said up front that it would veto Scottish entry so as not to encourage Flanders, Flanders would probably erupt.

Unfortunately, EU entry without the Euro might provide just such a reason. They could simply say that rules are rules, and that applies to Scotland too, or that Scotland must take its place in the queue like everyone else. Thus, they could delay Scottish entry and discourage their separatists that way.

grovel From yesterday's Telegraph. Is there any truth in it?

Both Spain and Belgium would block an independent Scotland's application to join the European Union, a former president of the EU's finance council has predicted.

I don't think anyone knows. It might not play out so badly in practice, but Salmond, Sturgeon and a lot of the SNP do seem to have a tendency to piss people off as their negotiation style does come across as rude and abusive at times with little factual basis, and I can't imagine negotiations going too well with them at the helm. Its just guesswork though and a leap into the unknown.

I can imagine Belgium, Spain, Malta, Cyrpus, Turkey and Greece, all of whom have separatist movements in their countries, objecting to special treatment for Scotland. In the case of Turkey, it has been waiting I believe 20 years for EU membership and has still not fulfilled the conditions for doing so, so it may possibly object on grounds of special treatment being offered to ease an independent Scotland's passage into the EU. And obviously Turkey has a high Muslim component and acts as a bridge to the Middle East, so its probably better to keep it onside the EU in the long term...

Fannyfifer - her name is GentleOtter and yes, she is still that situation: a tenant farmer with an absent (and powerful) landlord and Estate Managers who look after the shooting rights more than their farmers. She is real - I've met her. I know who the laird is. She blogs . The stories she tells are horrific.

Oops - my "copy" didn't work and pasted the last thing that I had pasted.

Correct link to the blog here

What shocked me most, though, was the hostility among some of the audience members towards rUK, the way in which they lapped up Salmond's sound bites, and the ease with which they blamed Westminster for everything that isn't perfect in Scotland.

YY Snapespotions. It's so easy to spout rabble-rousing rhetoric and much less glamorous to get down to the detailed business of where the money's going to come from to address all these problems.

FWIW, my Scottish DH was cringing at Salmond too. As are many many Scots.

Hi Itsallgoingtobefine I'm not a world expert on all matters, nor a paid advisor to you, so I suggest you enrol in a course if you are interested. Alternatively, open your eyes, if indeed you are in Scotland, and see whats being built on on those very areas of the map highlighted as prime agricultural land in east central Scotland.

How anyone can live in a country and be so unaware of what is going on around them, I don't know. You are able to go outdoors I take it, and are not limited in some way, and I'm not being really ignorant in suggesting this?

So anecdata then with a side helping of passive aggressiveness

Salmond and Sturgeon (and the White Paper) do assume that iScotland would... not be able to dictate terms as such, but be able to negotiate its way to what it wants, and any country that refuses to agree with it is being quite unreasonable. Speaking as a resident of a country with a similar population, my comment is that it isn't clear quite how iScotland would be able to achieve this. Certainly none of our governments have had enough smarts to do this. Scotland isn't special. It is unique in its way, like all other countries, but it isn't special. It would have to make sacrifices, some of which won't be popular.

The claim that Scotland would never leave the EU, wouldn't have to adopt the Euro, and would retain some of Britain's exemptions, are examples of the above.

Do you have a bike Itsallgoingtobefine? I don't know where you live, but I can guarantee that if you get out and enjoy our fine Scottish scenery, you will pretty quickly come across a spate of new housebuilding. If you take yourself to the east of Scotland, you will see loads of examples of what I have described. I am guessing that since you are on the internet on daylight hours, you are free to do this. I have no idea why current planning policy permits zoning of prime agricultural land for housing in a country with limited said prime agricultural land. Also, the sort of housing that is being built isn't particularly indicative of creating community values, which are one of the best things about Scotland.

That's her name Prettybird, thanks.

Not such fiction after all Chelsy I await your apology with baited breath.

Alistair Darling was rude, do you know how many times he pointed his finger at Salmond? I was getting really pissed off with his Loretto school boy attitude.

More of a diverse audience than the last one that's for sure.

Too right Diverse and also looks as if they didn't have to pay non eligible voters to join the audience either this time...made for more balanced questions being asked.

I have no idea why current planning policy permits zoning of prime agricultural land for housing in a country with limited said prime agricultural land.

Can you link me to the relevant bit of planning policy, you have obviously read it. I'm afraid I failed to find that too in my last google. I did find something about planning rules being relaxed to allow farmers a small amount of diversification, but I couldn't find anything about housing on agricultural land.

FWIW, my Scottish DH was cringing at Salmond too. As are many many Scots.

Yes, I'm sure you're right. I guess I hadn't been expecting to see the rabble.

So now all loretto school boys have a singular attitude too huh? Ffs.

Yes, I'm sure you're right. I guess I hadn't been expecting to see the rabble.

I was pretty shocked at how wet the moderator was at allowing them to speak over each other like that. I was also really surprised at the audience being allowed to shout and whoop like it was a football match.

But then, I suppose it wasn't any worse than what you see in the house of commons....

That blog prettybird its interesting for its amount of detail. But does the writer ever do anything but moan? Intermittent and breached water supply is par for the course if you live in an older property in the country. Guess what? Most of us have to pay for our own roofs, our own fences, our own upgraded water pipes. She doesn't like the sounds of shoots, in fact she doesn't like shoots at all. She doesn't keep the rabbit population under control. Her family have tenanted that land for 124 years. Most of us don't have the privilege to stay in the one place our family have been in for generations, as work takes us away. Work to pay mortgages to perhaps get our own little bit of property one day. Farming is hard - much of what she describes is just farming. Many farms are now supported by one partner to the marriage going out to work and the farm being run as a bit of a hobby, even when it is pretty big. That is the reality of farming nowadays.

We watched it with some American friends who are staying with us. They were embarrassed for us and we're not even Scots!

I agree they both did talk over each other, and at one point it was actually unbearable to watch.

Alistair lost that debate though, Salmond walked away victorious.

Nice to see on BBC2 the coverage after the debate and one of the voters who was undecided now a Yes. Watching Darling in action didn't exactly win many over because he never put across a positive case for staying in the UK. He just painted it black over and over again.

Sorry for the cheap shot re Loretto - I'm sure many who attend this school won't turn out as badly as Darling!

Ncforaye oh I've had nats suggesting I should leave.

Hopefully there will be even more Gaelic signs going up around Scotland if there's a Yes vote. After all, Scotland doesn't just cater to the majority.

Salmond is an arrogant, pompous vain bully. The politician he reminds me the most of is Thatcher. Exactly the same snide, patronising way of talking over anyone else. The same inability to conceive they could be wrong about anything. The same view that anyone holding a different view is an idiot.

He is a vile and loathsome man.