to start a new Scottish Indyref thread?

[FannyFifer]

Round 2 folks, ding ding!

I read a UK Government paper that suggested their stance would be dual nationality, and that British nationality could be passed to children but no further, so if Person A and their family stay in Scotland then their children would be British but not their grandchildren.

I hate all the national identity arguments. I am Scottish, but I feel really unwelcome here now, and I hate all the flag waving some people are doing. Whatever the result, I think I'll give up Facebook and twitter on the 19th because I am sickened by what I've seen on there. And I consider myself more British than Scottish purely as a result of the last two years.

There are also people from rUK who say they'll move to Scotland in the event of a Yes vote.

I might have a flat they could buy

CDDexterHaven I know people in this country who have given up on the idea of university or who are lap-dancing their way through but have friends from Denmark, for example, who received Government-funding for their doctorates, even if they studied abroad. The money was taxed but their tuition fees were paid and they had money to live on. That's the kind of society I would like to live in; where young people know they can get a high-standard of education rather than get a place on a Work Programme

You would be better using Finland as an example of a (sort of) Nordic country with an excellent education system. Denmark's (like a lot of things in Scandinavia) isn't that great and doesn't come that high up on the league table. Or Holland, which is highest in Maths and Science and third in the Arts, but which has similar taxation levels to the UK. Also be aware that there are quite a few countries in the EU in which Scottish students can pay fees of around £1500 a year to do postgraduate courses right now - Scottish students in past centuries would commonly go to places like Bologna, Utrecht, Brugges, etc to study.

Does anyone know what the policy is on the CAP and single farm payments in the event of independence? Will the Scottish Government step in to guarantee these massive costs, or will rural Scotland just be left in the lurch with placatory remarks?

ChelsyHandy

I'm afraid I don't know, but Farming4Yes might have some answers on that?

www.farming4yes.com/

Hi NCforAye I would really appreciate it if you wouldn't direct me to Yes propaganda, which anyone with an addiction to google could find themselves if they were that way inclined.

ChelsyHandy

You asked a question - I was directing you to a grassroots campaign made up of people who are presumably invested in questions affecting farming, who might therefore have considered (and found an answer) to the question you had. I didn't know if you were aware that Farming for Yes existed as a grassroots group, hence directing you to it. (I'm only aware of it because there are a number of farmers on the local Yes group email list I'm on, and they've talked about it)

Of course I want to see people voting Yes but I'm not trying to force anything on anyone. Above all I think it is important that people make an informed democratic decision. Indeed I will - and have - stood on doorsteps and checked people were on the electoral roll (and enabled them to get on it) before even knowing whether they would vote Yes or No. An own goal perhaps, but it's most important that people are out there and voting, whatever they vote.

Indeed, if anyone isn't registered to vote:

www.electoralcommission.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0012/170400/The-2014-Scottish-Independence-Referendum-Voting-Guide.pdf

Pretty obvious by the web address what it is chelsy. No likey, no clicky...easy, peasy.

Chelsy My understanding is the SNP have said in the event of a yes vote, they will guarantee agricultural payments, but they haven't specified where this money will be coming from.

For Chelsy
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-27195830

It is also worth noting, as the above piece points out, that the UK leaving the EU (looking increasingly likely) would also have a somewhat detrimental impact on EU agricultural payments.

I indulged my addiction to Google and found that CAP payments are made in arrears, and the 2014-2020 budget has already been set, so yes, Scotland can underwrite these payments during a transition period to independent EU membership (at which point CAP payments will probably go up).

Sorry
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-27195830

An addiction to Google is a great thing in this referendum!

Due to Westminster Scotland is currently at the bottom of the CAP league tables. So not sure how on earth if could get worse.
Oh I know, by UK leaving the EU as is looking pretty likely.

Scots Parly fought for the 200 odd million convergence payments which were approved by Europe but even though there was cross party support of the bill in the Scots Parly it was overruled by Westminster & the funds didn't get allocated.

Being able to represent Scotland in Europe would be a bonus for the farmers & ensure they get all the funding they are entitled to.

Just looked at the 'farming for yes' link.

A lot of what they say is broadly true about the different nature of Scotland's and England's agricultural sectors, but addressing this in an independent Scotland is predicated on Scotland joining the EU post independence ... and then as a small country, having sufficient bargaining clout.

Thanks all. I'm going to check the White Paper as it will surely have the definitive version, since farming is one of Scotland's main industries. FWIW I have a lot to do with the farming sector and have yet to meet a farmer in favour of independence, and the roadsides are currently covered in No signs which appear to be on farmland and forestry.

The CAP is a huge cost so it must surely have been specifically budgeted for, and in transitional terms, the Scottish Government must have some way of working out when exactly they will be permitted EU membership, as a wait as long as Turkey has had for example, would surely bankrupt the country.

I will revert back once I've looked at the White Paper for the answer.

Does anyone have a link to the "Farming for No" grassroots group? There must be one surely?

My understanding is that Scotland won't be able to join the EU without a central bank, which, if it uses the pound without a currency union, it won't have. Is this right?

NCforAye

(on a PC now)

By and large, the UK is pretty relaxed about dual citizenship. I have dual citizenship myself. Various countries allow it, to avoid individuals getting treated unjustly. It would be another thing to grant dual citizenship to 5m people.

There is a rough parallel with the former Dominions. My great-aunt was born in New Zealand in 1909. That made her a British subject with the same right of abode in the UK as people born there (it was the same across the Empire and dominions). In 1949, the NZ and UK parliaments created their own citizenships, and she opted for the former (she never in fact lived in the UK). Her brother, my grandfather, was also born in NZ in 1906. He emigrated to the UK in the 30s and stayed there for the rest of his life and became a British citizen at this time. He never became a New Zealand citizen (as an aside, he considered himself fiercely Scottish and would have been horrified by the independence movement).

They both remained British subjects, but that status became pretty insignificant quite quickly. The reality was that they had to opt for one or the other.

I understand that people born in Northern Ireland are entitled to dual citizenship. However, I don't understand this is due to any agreement between the UK and Ireland, but simply because Irish nationality law applies to anyone born on the island of Ireland.

I think one nationality is fair enough.

Does anyone have a link to the "Farming for No" grassroots group? There must be one surely?

I should think most self-respecting farmers would be out working, particularly at this time of year, rather than farting about on the internet.

Also, would it be possible to have less of the emphasis on deprived area status of Scotland in agricultural terms? Scotland has some of the richest farmland in Europe on the east coast and is marked by having arable land up to the far north and as far as Orkney. Some parts of East Lothian manage 3 crops a year and 3 cuts of hay. This formed a vital part of Scotland's history and was in fact one of the factors that attracted Norse and Anglo-Saxon settlers from other lands in past centuries. I don't think representing Scotland as some scratchy agriculturally poor backwater is good for its image or representative of the truth.

Salmond did us proud last night. What a man! Great debate and Alistair Darling came across as nervous thoughout, and also slightly shifty (DH also picked up on this).

Ah yes the rich landowners with their No signs. Wonder why that could be.

A high percentage of farmers rent their land from said Landowners they don't own it.

ChelsyHandy

How is a grassroots website propoganda but the White Paper isn't?! Genuine, slightly bemused question. (I'd have thought if you didn't trust anything said by ordinary Yes supporters you certainly wouldn't trust the White Paper...)

ItsAllGoingToBeFine

In the interests of balance, I did look for one!

LatinforTelly

It's complicated, but the situation is something like this:

1. iScotland, as a newly-created state would not be party to any international treaties.
2. The EU is a creation of international treaty (between the member states, which would include rUK).
3. Accordingly, iScotland would have to apply to join (and any existing member has the right to veto entry).
4. The treaties currently provide

a) that new entrants have to adopt the Euro. b) that no country can adopt the Euro without having operated its own currency for a certain period of time (this is to give some kind of assurance of financial stability).

So if the treaties were applied to the letter, Scotland would have to issue its own currency and use it for the necessary period of time before it was granted entry.

However, it is of course open to the member states to amend the treaties to make a special case for Scotland. All the member states would have to agree to this. On the one hand, iScotland would have been within the land area of the EU for some years. On the other hand, many of the continental states are sick to the back teeth of the British wrangling special treatment, and iScotland wouldn't have quite the size to demand it.