to start a new Scottish Indyref thread?

[FannyFifer]

Round 2 folks, ding ding!

grovel In the event of a Yes, I hope for Scotland's sake that AS does not use his "assumption close" style of negotiating.

Or indeed the "its not fair, you're being rude" response when an argument gets the better of them!

That doesn't mean however that no value should be placed on the language. I also find it odd that you say it has no place in Scotland, where most mountains has a Gaelic name, and the way Gaelic is entwined in in the history/tradition of the Highlands. Indigenous languages ( and it is classed as such) are important.

No, I clearly wrote that it had no place in the Scotland that I know and have lived in. Never heard it spoken outside the Uists, no idea how to pronounce it and no desire to learn.

You are aware that place and mountain names in Scotland come from a variety of linguistic sources, including Pictish, Norse, Gaelic, Anglo-Saxon and Latin? You are not seriously telling me that the Devil's Point and The Saddler are Gaelic? Or even the name "Cairngorm"?

I've posted before about referendum stuff but the farming issue is particularly important. Yes keep peddling the myth that a no vote will 'drag' us out of EU as if this is the crux of the argument and ignore the fact that, like most businesses, the devil is in the detail of the economic arguments.

There is no doubt opportunity for Scotland to have a more direct 'voice' at varying levels of EU but whether that gives any more clout is debatable. The UK also has a number of hard-negotiated rebates and exclusions which are constantly challenged at EU level. The greatest threat to businesses whcih trade primarily with rUK is that we could find ourselves with different EU status (that could be in/out or on different EU agreed terms).

Even if we turn our gaze to Norway, farmers there operate with no EU subsidy. Being 'in' is not the end in itself - being 'in' has to be the means to develop better (trade, movement, etc) relations with other members who are 'in'. Considering our greatest trade/movement is with rUK would we not be better in UK/out EU than the other way around?

This guy does a good job of summing up here

WildThong Re the tweet from East Ren Council account...now there is a council who don't mind building on prime green belt...Cala, Stewart Milne etc all welcome

Ah yes, the under-performing East Renfrewshire Council. Wonder whats in it for them, bearing in mind their strongly socialist principles, in allowing big property developers to build on scarce to secure sites?

Itsallgoingtobefine that's astonishing that so many people are wanting to vote Yes! Most Yes voters I know are considered cranks and crackpots by sensible people.

No, I clearly wrote that it had no place in the Scotland that I know and have lived in.

Apologies, I misunderstood you to mean Scotland in general, as opposed to the specific areas you know. My bad.

You are aware that place and mountain names in Scotland come from a variety of linguistic sources, including Pictish, Norse, Gaelic, Anglo-Saxon and Latin?

Of course! And as I said many of them have Gaelic names, the only one of those languages still spoken/recently spoken, and the only one of those languages that has indigenous language status.

Thank you It'sall interesting.

This guy does a good job of summing up here

The Better Together version of Wings....

Chelsyhandy - you don't do the debate any favours with statements such as "Most Yes voters I know are considered cranks and crackpots by sensible people." (my bold)

I know many sensible people, some Yes, some No. All are highly educated and have come to their conclusions carefully. I wouldn't dream of denigrating them, implying that they weren't sensible, whatever their opinion.

Chelsyhandy - you don't do the debate any favours with statements such as "Most Yes voters I know are considered cranks and crackpots by sensible people." (my bold)

Chelsy must be a Yes campaign paid astroturfer - its the only explanation

I'm not sure that's fair if you read his blog and his 'bona fides', particularly as he is resident in Scotland, has a vote and businesses here.

Read or don't read, but he certainly doesn't come across in the same way as that awful character and BT certainly haven't had to officially 'distance' themselves as YES have had to do with WoS.

Read or don't read, but he certainly doesn't come across in the same way as that awful character and BT certainly haven't had to officially 'distance' themselves as YES have had to do with WoS.

He does to me, but then I am a Yes voter . It is interesting how broad the campaigns are.

pbs.twimg.com/media/BuDNcXZCIAAoIuJ.jpg

Wings may have some [ahem] controversy attached to him, but BT have got the Orange Order, Brittanica et all....

Well, there's this to be said for the thread ... whatever folks' personal preferences, there's a darned sight more proper debate about the issues than we saw last night!!!!

Puzzled

Wasn't there talk of Salmond coming onto Mumsnet again before the vote? We could show him how it's done...

What you mean without screeching, yelling, pointing or refusing to let the other side speak!

I can't believe anyone would seriously hold up Norway as an example of successful farming practices. Aside from the issue that you clearly don't know your Scottish history regarding why much of Scotland is so Norse in character, Norway is an awful example of unworkable, unimproved land and entrenched inheritance practices which lead to fewer and fewer farms being worked, even by tenants, since they tend to run down and either kept or sold as second and holiday homes.

Norway is a pretty awful country in many ways. Just what does the average Norwegian get out of its much vaunted oil fund? In a tiny population, it has around 1 million people of working age not working on and on benefits. People drive old, clapped out cars and pay massive prices for ordinary things. They sometimes drive to Sweden in their clapped out cars with the sole purpose of getting things slightly cheaper. Its health service makes the NHS look a model of competence and efficiency.

Just look at some of the comments from actual Norwegians at the end of this article:

www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/dec/25/vitenberg-norways-mythical-oil-wealth/

prettybird Chelsyhandy - you don't do the debate any favours with statements such as "Most Yes voters I know are considered cranks and crackpots by sensible people." (my bold)

I am aware that not all will like to hear that. But I am posting what I feel and what my experiences are, as opposed to some glossed up version designed to sway people over to my own viewpoints.

I debate mainly because I don't like to see inaccuracies stand, rather than from an ideological viewpoint.

People can vote how they want, I neither expect or want to influence them. That is the reason a Referendum is being held, so people can vote how they want.

Wasn't there talk of Salmond coming onto Mumsnet again before the vote? We could show him how it's done ...

Don't even go there ... I doubt anyone else would be able to contribute in writing either!!!!

Chelsy I missed the bit where anyone held up Norway as an example of successful farming I was somewhat sarcastically mentioning Norway since it is endlessly paraded as the 'vision' for Scotland without due attention to basic facts such as the fact that they have no EU farming subsidies.

Itsallgoingtobefine You clearly like to identify as being on a 'side' which I've never really understood . Am I automatically associated with such a broad spectrum of values and actions based on voting intention? Even under this one roof we have different reasons for voting the way we intend...

Just what does the average Norwegian get out of its much vaunted oil fund?

As far as I know the constitution only allows the Norwegian government access to 4% of the interest on capital from oil.

In a tiny population, it has around 1 million people of working age not working on and on benefits

Norway has 3.2% unemployment www.tradingeconomics.com/norway/unemployment-rate
UK has 6.4% unemployment www.tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/unemployment-rate

People drive old, clapped out cars and pay massive prices for ordinary things. They sometimes drive to Sweden in their clapped out cars with the sole purpose of getting things slightly cheaper

Norway average disposable income 32093USD pa
UK average disposable income 25828UAD pa
(From OECD Better Life Index)

But I am posting what I feel and what my experiences are, as opposed to some glossed up version designed to sway people over to my own viewpoints.

The issue is when opinion is presented as fact.

And needless to say I neither heed nor share nonsense from organisations such as those you mention simply because they are 'no'!

I do judge people for sharing WoS though.

"Why ? Will they be confused and not know they are on the east coast? What nonsense. The reason is simply the gaelic lobby trying to falsely make out gaelic was ever a national language."

If I was bilingual I'd appreciate signs in my mother tongue even if I knew where I was. Why not?

It may be an indigenous language here in Scotland but it's still used by certain communities. Your utter contempt for the Gaelic language isn't justified Phaed.

Teuch no worries, mea culpa.

Its the Yes supporters are not content with telling everyone how wonderful an independent Scotland will be, but are now telling Norwegians how wonderful Norway is! God forbid that any of them have an opinion on the matter of living in their own country!

You clearly like to identify as being on a 'side' which I've never really understood confused. Am I automatically associated with such a broad spectrum of values and actions based on voting intention? Even under this one roof we have different reasons for voting the way we intend

Of course I am on a "side" in this. I am a Yes voter, and make no pretence of being neutral. I also agree that as both sides have a wide and varied support base, both sides have folk who are controversial to say the least and an individual voter does not necessarily agree with/is not represented by all those in Yes camp. Wings does not define the Yes campaign, the Orange Order does not define the No.

Its the Yes supporters are not content with telling everyone how wonderful an independent Scotland will be, but are now telling Norwegians how wonderful Norway is! God forbid that any of them have an opinion on the matter of living in their own country!

I haven't posted any opinions about Norway, only facts?

Norway vs UK kcost of living comparison indicates costs are approx 30% higher which makes a pretty big dent in that disposable income

As for the type of voters out there, sadly I know one friend who has said she can't be bothered with politics so she's just going to vote no. Bloody hell, at least have a reason for voting one way or the other!

Apparently she can't be arsed reading all the materials available as it's just a headache. She said she doesn't know enough about benefits of independence so she's voting no.

Oh dear :(