To talk about my children

[lemonfolly]

I've been home a couple of hours from the worst birthday celebration ever...

Went out with my girls, was some weird drama in the air all night. Culminated in my very good friend exploding with rage at everyone for talking about our children. Kid talk was probably 25% of the discussion all night and 75% of us have children. Other discussions were work, family, men, gossip, pets etc etc

Friend who exploded has said they have had enough of us talking about our kids. Was actually off and rude all night before this happened. Said friend talks about her job and pet which we all obligingly listen to. Whilst I know it must be annoying to talk about kids, if that's our lives and we only discuss it for a small portion of the evening, is it really that awful? I get it must be pretty hurtful if you want kids and don't have them. I try to keep my conversation in check for that reason, but sometimes i have fuck all to say if I didn't talk about them. I don't want to drift apart because I can't talk about my life too, but that looks like the way it may have to go.

I must add, it's my birthday, and the whole night was ruined by the general moodiness and outburst. I feel guilty for being a mum, talking about my kids, and angry that my friend can't be more selfless for one fucking night. AIBU?

That's a great article Pipbin.

I still think the friend in this case has gone too far. OP should be sensitive, sure, but it's too much to expect she never mentions the biggest thing (or one of the biggest) in her life.

I have suffered from infertility and I used to internally wince at stories about pregnancy etc, but I knew it was my issue (unless someone was being particularly insensitive!).

It does get tricky. I had a friend via work who was also struggling to ttc at the same time as me. After I had my first we gradually grew apart. I'd been there and she knew it. But every now and then we'd fall into an awkward part of the conversation. Ultimately we both knew I'd succeeded while on the same path as her. She hadn't and it was shit, so shit, but there was nothing I could do about it. I was lucky and she wasn't :(. We'd had the same treatments and all sorts. I was happy not to talk about my son all the time, but even when not mentioned he was still there in the background.

I agree that the article is very good.

The only thing I can think to compare this subject with, is the loss of my mum - even though it's a completely different kettle of fish really.
My mum and I were close...she was a great support to me, and very loving. She was extremely tight with our son as a tot too.
Sadly when I was 30 and my son 4 she died from an aggressive strain of cancer. She was only 64. I was devastated.
The pain remained raw for a long time, but it never occurred to me to tell my friends not to talk about their own mothers who were alive and well.
I didn't scream, cry, demand that they stop the car to let me out, or tell them I hated them if they did.
Because that would have been outrageous bad behaviour wouldn't it?
Of course it would.

Yes Pictish, but there are very few people whose sole topic of conversation is their mother. But there are plenty where children are. If your friends were constantly talking about their mothers, day in, day out, when you were in your most raw period of grief, you wouldn't struggle with that?

Resilience is important in life. I've been thinking a lot lately about the women left alone after WW1. Not much chance of getting married, let alone having children. Most of those women squared their shoulders, to use a fantastic phrase Sara Paretsky uses a lot in her wonderful VI Warshawski novels, and got on with life.

If life gives you lemons, make lemonade. Read the article I've linked to above. Having children isn't a human right. It's a privilege. If it doesn't happen for you, look for the positives in that situation. I have a friend in her 50s who doesn't have children of her own but does have a niece and nephew. She is a an enormously positive influence in their lives. Good for her.

Hypothetically, I might have struggled with it yes - but still wouldn't think to create a scene shouting and crying about it though. Obviously.

As for 'sole topic of conversation' - you seem very sure that OP was droning on about her baby, making it the sole topic of conversation, while refusing to talk about anything else...as you have said all of those things on here so far.
Were you there?

If not, I think you ought to stop fantasising about what took place, and using it as a valid argument.

using it as though it were* a valid argument

Kid talk was probably 25% of the discussion all night and 75% of us have children. Other discussions were work, family, men, gossip, pets etc etc

That's what the person who was actually there said about it, and I'm going by that.

Well yes, but the OP also quotes another person who was there who said it was "constant".

OP says 25%, other person says constant. Truth is probably somewhere between the two.

Probably. Still no reason to throw a shit fit though. The woman is an adult.

If she's 'normally really good fun' and is a close friend I'd be wondering what's actually going on for her to over-react like this. And then I'd be talking to her, sensitively, in person not on text, along the lines of, 'Is everything OK? You didn't seem yourself last night...'

And you might find out that she's

having a hard time on internet dating
stressed out with work
having a total 'is there something wrong with me?' life crisis because she's the only one without a relationship
wondering if she'll die alone half-eaten by cats
scared she won't have anything in common with her old friends if she doesn't have children
under some sort of family guilt trip from her parents about 'getting a move on'
had a fertility check-up which has revealed she doesn't have long left to start a family, and with no man in sight

Any number of things. Why not ask her?

There is nothingf more boring than other people's children, and particularly babies who make for a particularly narrow conversation.It maybe only felt like 20% to you, but probably felt like 90% to her.I guess the truth lies somewhere in between.

I'm thinking maybe her own banter about her pet which is graciously received is pretty dull as well.
I personally cba listening to anecdotes about dogs and cats because I don't care. I still smile and nod along though. Some of my pals are guilty of it.

We're all as dull as fuck when it comes down to it really.
Thank goodness for manners.

If life gives you lemons, make lemonade.

I do agree with that, and I am going to enjoy my child free life if my third IVF doesn't work.

However, the attitude of 'stop moaning and put up with it' isn't very helpful. Yes women after WWI had a hard time and they just got on with it. But then so did the women who lost their husbands. Would you say to a grieving widow 'but women in WWI had to get on with it.

I'm not defending the woman 'throwing a shitfit' of 'having a tantrum', but I think that people who haven't dealt with infertility just don't understand.

Likening it to grief, Pictish is a good analogy. And like grief it's something you learn to live with rather than get over.
But it is different kind of grief as you are grieving for something that will never be.
I have pictures of the embryos that were put back, that's it, chances are that those two pictures are the closest I will ever get to motherhood.

Sometimes I find it hard, but then I just leave the room. I walk off and have a cry on my own.

The Op has a three month old! I can't believe she got out of the house on a girls night out, never mind managed to talk about anything other than the all-consumingness that is small babies. I felt like I had started inhabiting a parallel universe when I had a tiny baby in which the normal world rumbled on and I lived in a time without day or night, feeding and sleeping for an hour, feeding and sleeping for an hour, rinse repeat. The idea of having witty conversation on a range of topics would have been laughable, 75% not on children would have been quite amazing for me at that stage.

I'm so grateful that two of my best friends, who didn't have children themselves at that point, allowed me to offload the awfulness of it.

I know that's not the OP's friends fault and probably it is tiring and tedious to listen to, but I think with a small baby, you are in baby world. If you don't then emerge, or get new topics of conversation, or a life outside it's a shame but it takes a little time.

OP your friend has apologised, why not try to have a one to one heart to heart at some point about what's going on with the babies/relationship issues? It obviously all has hit a nerve.

Personally, if a good friend whose company I really enjoyed suddenly started behaving in a manner like that, screaming, crying, incoherent, I would not be concerned my birthday had been ruined.

I'd be concerned about her mental health. I'd assume there was a good chance she was becoming depressed or having a breakdown. I'd be doing everything to reach out to her.

You can really tell the people on this thread who had trouble ttc versus those who didn't!

Hi RP!!

I think honesty is called for all round- one of my friends called me and said she didn't want to come and visit when the children were little as she was having difficulty ttc. Happy to chat on the phone, just couldn't face lots of babies/toddlers, too painful. Her honesty made it possible to get through that time. It sounds like the OP's friend was caught out by her own upset, it probably took her by surprise.

RevoltingPeasant, very well said.

Your friend was out of order but I really feel for her. I was once mid-thirties with no child and no partner in sight and I can tell you I endured some pretty grim nights out at times. I was careful not to lose any close friends over it but I did distance myself from some people because I couldn't cope with the gob-smackingly patronising and insensitive remarks. I never lashed out like your friend has done but I did have to walk away a few times.

You say that your friend had been 'off' all evening. It sounds like she was already upset when she met up with you and took it out on you. That's not nice but do you know why she was upset in the first place? Did you ask her?

Incidentally what used to get to me the most wasn't the 'my children are all wonderful' talk; it was all the moaning. Because, from where I was sitting, they had nothing to complain about. Unreasonable? Yes totally but that was how I used to feel and it could well be how your friend felt.

Op I think this is more about your friend than you. You have a tiny baby and you're still in a baby world with little time or energy for anything else - of course you're going to talk about your baby.

I have 2 dc now, 2.6 and 6mo, and most of my friends have kids. I have two good friends who are childless not by choice. They are in their forties and mostly coming to terms with their situations and have very full lives, but When we go out I try so hard to tread the line between not gushing and not whingeing. I can't
contribute as much as I'd like to the other topics of their extensive travel, social life and work but I really enjoy being part of a non baby conversation. It sounds like you are trying hard too - it's probably just that 5 mins of baby chat may feel like a lot to her.

I should say I also have friends who are childless by choice and I also try to limit baby chat with them for different reasons - I know they find it dull! Of course I don't know how successfully I am doing this - I suppose I'm just thinking about how we try to manage conversations to keep friendships going. I hope things are better with your friend next time you meet.

sounds like something is going on with her right now that is making her especially sensitive. Maybe she just got out of the wrong side of the bed, maybe something more.

People talk about their lives. We've all bored people and been bored by people talking about children or mortgages or new boyfriends, exes, football, office politics, bloody diets. You nod and smile and wait for your turn to speak. Very few people are witty and engaging and entertaining to listen to all the time.

I agree that unless you were 'lording it over her' about having wonderful children unlike her, it's about where she is, or was last night in her head, not you.

Your friend is very, very upset. She acted out of character.

Perhaps it might be best to stop thinking about protecting your right to talk about whatever you want and start thinking about how you can reach out to her?

Of course you can't have a friendship where one party controls what may or may not be mentioned.

But equally there must be sensitivity in circumstances where a friend is deeply unhappy.

You can't be held ransom to another person's unhappiness but no relationship would ever survive if we all wanted to switch off when someone in our life was unreasonable due to deep sadness.

I have friends in this position (single, 30s, wanting babies) I also had fertility issues.... She was out of order but perhaps the best way to handle it would be to ask her how she is doing because it was really uncharacteristic for her to get so cross. Something you said about her cat being sick and her crying resonated with me. I was very sensitive with my cat (he went missing for a day and I freaked out) when I had had a miscarriage. Most people didn't know about the m/c so I probably seemed OTT. Sorry it ruined your birthday. This really isn't your issue. Maybe you could help though.

I've just read the thread again and you mention a few times that she is normally great fun and 'the life and soul' etc. Well it sounds like she has had enough of being the fun friend. She sounds desperately unhappy. She has told you she is lonely. You say yourself that you think she has issues. Yes, she shouldn't have chosen to let fly at you on your birthday but unhappy people behave badly sometimes and being a friend sometimes means being the bigger person and seeing past that. Please talk to her and I don't just mean send ber a text.