To talk about my children

[lemonfolly]

I've been home a couple of hours from the worst birthday celebration ever...

Went out with my girls, was some weird drama in the air all night. Culminated in my very good friend exploding with rage at everyone for talking about our children. Kid talk was probably 25% of the discussion all night and 75% of us have children. Other discussions were work, family, men, gossip, pets etc etc

Friend who exploded has said they have had enough of us talking about our kids. Was actually off and rude all night before this happened. Said friend talks about her job and pet which we all obligingly listen to. Whilst I know it must be annoying to talk about kids, if that's our lives and we only discuss it for a small portion of the evening, is it really that awful? I get it must be pretty hurtful if you want kids and don't have them. I try to keep my conversation in check for that reason, but sometimes i have fuck all to say if I didn't talk about them. I don't want to drift apart because I can't talk about my life too, but that looks like the way it may have to go.

I must add, it's my birthday, and the whole night was ruined by the general moodiness and outburst. I feel guilty for being a mum, talking about my kids, and angry that my friend can't be more selfless for one fucking night. AIBU?

Oh hey, I'm not saying LTB...that's up to you.

I'm saying I would be compelled to LTB. I could forgive a one off too-much-to-drink and emotions-getting-the-better-of-you meltdown from a friend...but owing to the subject matter (I don't like it when you talk about your kids), I'd be aghast!

Children are people who feature predominantly in our lives, not possessions we crow about! She may as well ask you not to drive your car because she hasn't got one, or not to live in your house because it's bigger than hers. Dyswim?

Totally unreasonable, drunk or not.

And coming from someone who likes to talk about her pet.

You know her and can square this circle easily, but it sounds abysmal to me.

Notinagreatplace - The fags and booze means I think it unlikely shes actively trying to conceive. Pretty certain she has no diagnosed fertility issues, just not with someone to try.

I have a circle if friends some of whom have had children in the last couple of years. They seem to manage to have a night out without talking about them much. I suspect the conversations were pretty child focused in this case and that's been the case for a while. She's apologised and I think it would be sensitive to realise that conversation excluding one member of the group isn't pleasant for the person excluded. It doesn't mean never mentioning your children but developing topics to find common ground. Surely that's more stimulating for everyone?

Lemonfolly - if you've been told that you can't conceive, why not go on the booze? I was certainly drinking quite heavily post infertility diagnoses because it was all quite upsetting. Particularly post failed IVF attempts.

lemonfolly do you feel jealous of her freedom to the extent that you'd advise her not to have children? I don't mean in an "oh for goodness sake, don't get so upset about it, it's not all it's cracked up to be" sort of way, I mean in a "seriously, I am in a position to tell you that it is not always a good decision and you should think very hard before giving up your freedom".

The reason I ask is that DH and I are really having difficulty right now trying to decide whether to have a baby and it worries me when I see comments from people with children saying that they are jealous of childfree life. Are you really jealous or just temporarily envious?

I think kids definitely get touched on as a subject on social occasions, but I wouldn't say kiddy chat featured any more heavily than anything else...gossip, work, recent events, whatever...

Do you talk about your kids a lot?

Pictish - I have a 3 month old baby, because he's so young he's discussed more than perhaps an older child. Ie lack of sleep etc.

I reviewed conversations of last night, there were at least 10 different topics that were chunky conversations. 3 of those chunky conversations related to my friends life. 1 related to my life.

Jessie - it can be a really tough decision whether to have children. You can't truly imagine what it's like, you can't send them back if you don't like it! I would always chose my life with children. They are very tiring, freedom snatching but very fulfilling.

I think the 'not with someone to try' element is probably doing her head in more than not having a baby. As she sees it, she's not only 9 months behind everyone else, she's [however long it take to find a man] + 9 months behind - and when you're in your mid-thirties and drunk and out with a bunch of happily settled friends that can make you feel dangerously close to the cut-off point altogether.

Not having kids when all your friends do isn't like 'oh, Katie and Sarah are running a marathon but I'm not really into running, so i wish they'd talk about something else'. It's like 'Katie, Sarah, Hannah, Helen and Amy all speak Swahili most of the night and i have to sit here like a lemon trying to pick up the occasional word here and there. And I might never get to learn the language.' It's amazing how quickly that can make any otherwise sensible grown-up woman feel irrational and tearful.

She could easily have left earlier and make her excuses instead of kicking out and make everyone feel bad on your birthday.
She does sound self centrered.
I'm glad she apologised, but I'm not sure you should have.

Thanks lemonfolly, that's helpful.

FWIW I remember being single (for what seemed like forever) and going out with all my coupled up friends. Sometimes I would feel utterly, utterly miserable and jealous that they had found someone and I was a bit intolerant of things like wedding and joint housebuying talk (not so much the child talk as I was never strongly motivated by the idea of having children). I didn't ever lose it in front of them but I would sometimes go home feeling like the evening had drained me rather than invigorated me and I can imagine it might not have taken much to send me off on a tirade.

I eventually realised that it was better to spend a bit more time with fellow single -but-looking women and then I was in a better frame of mind when hanging out with my attached friends. Perhaps your friend needs to find a stronger network of women in a similar position to her. Are there any others in your group?

I'm sorry your celebrations were ruined, it isn't nice when you are looking forward to something. Your friend WBU to let things get to the point where she exploded at you all, really she should have not let it fester up. On the otherhand sometimes that's easier said then done and she may well have tried but none of you listened. None of us know either way.

IT's good that apologies were made, the only thing that doesn't sit well to me is that there's no resolution. It doesn't sound like your friend has spoken 1-on-1 with you or anyone else about this except to apologize. What I'm also curious about is why the focus is on 'we can no longer talk about our chldren so naturally the friendship will drift' rather then the more concerning 'my friend is lonely and hurt, she's had an angry outburst and it's all very OOC for her. How can I help her'

The focus seems to be on 'shit the friendships going to go down the pan because I can't talk' when actually all it may take is one of you to reach out to her as a friend. She may well just need that friendship and support. If her actions and outbursts and behaviour was out of character, coupled with the words she spoke, I would be more concerned that my friend and I needed time alone together and/or she needed to talk to me then not being able to talk about my kids causing distancing. When out in a larger group, especially for a celebration, is hard to talk about negative things. How often do you and sid good friend speak? Would you (or anyone else) know if she'd had a lot of shit recently in her life? Health scare or other issues?

Tbh, I have a friend who actively avoids us because it's so painful to see everyone at different stages in their live: new house, new jobs, moving in with artners, engagements and marriages. She's not single but she's very not happy with her partner so while she's happy for us every single bit of us 'moving on' is moving to where she yearns to be. And it eats into her. I know even mentioning the partners names or anything related to them has her in tears, she had to walk out the room when her DSis announced her third pregnancy.

With your friend it's probably not just 'kids' but that she's not where she'd love to be in terms of an intimate partner.

but your kids are a large part of your life...and you should be allowed to speak about them without fear of this.

it seems to me like the person who lost thier temper was looking for an excuse.

next time you go out with her, tell her she cant use the word...man, or yellow, or drink... since you dont want to talk about those things... she might just see how unreasonable she was

I agree fuckuppery.

I can imagine how it must be to long for a child.
I can also totally imagine sensitively avoiding the subject of maternal bliss around someone who has miscarried or had IVF fail. I'm not a clod.

But I wouldn't expect a tantrum following fair dinkum this-is-what's-going-on-in-my-life chit chat, because a friend hasn't met the right man yet. Of course I would be made acutely aware of the extent of their being troubled by it - but I still don't think it excuses such a spiteful performance. And on someone's birthday too.

Having said that...if it was an unusual turn from a good friend, I'd accept a decent apology.

pictish I think you are minimising this friend's situation i.e. all because a friend hasn't met the right man yet...

She's mid-thirties, single and childless. Her situation has similarities to someone who has miscarried or had an IVF fail in that she still hasn't got a child - and she isn't going to have one, in the near future anyway. I've been in both situations. Miscarrying was awful. But at least I was trying to ttc. And could continue with that hope. When I was single, I felt much worse.

I think this friend should be cut a bit of slack and I agree wholeheartedly with what hormonal said a few posts up. A bit of empathy wouldn't go amiss here.

Sorry OP but I think you sound very insensitive.

I think the fact that you refuse to not drone on about your children quite cruel.

In the same way you wouldn't bang on about all the luxury treats you'd bought yourself to someone with financial worries. Or about your amazing husband with someone who had just been widowed.

She's apologised for the outburst graciously. I think you should start being a better friend. And get some other interests.

I can really sympathise with your friend - I don't condone how she addressed it that was unreasonable but can see why it might have just all come to a head.

I spent most of my 20's and early 30's single. Throughout this time I have been subjected to hours of wedding conversations, been asked to plan numerous hen nights but never been asked to be a bridesmaid for all bar one of the weddings. I have decorated more wedding venues than necessary as friends asked me to help and I willingly did, I even spent hours writing one set of invitations as she was embarrassed her writing was too scruffy and I can do calligraphy. I did all this completely happily.

Then came the babies - I had been with a guy for just on two years and we split up as I wanted children and he didn't. Literally the weekend after this I was at a baby shower for one of the recently married bods, my sister had a baby two months later and in the same month my two best friends told me they were pregnant. It was tough. The feeling of lonliness was horrendous, but I painted on my smile and sucked it up - like a lot of you are saying she should do.

Then came the baby talk - I arranged a baby shower for my two best friends, and everytime I see them (long distance so not regularly) its lots of baby talk. The only reason I can survive these conversations is I am very involved in my neice and nephew who are a similar age so I can contribute.

When I finally come to get married - 10 years after most of them - no one could even be bothered to ask about my plans - or offer to help with hen night even when asked. I am now pregnant and it really feels a bit been there done that we have older children is the attitude.

I ended up on tablets and having counselling as I felt so isolated from my whole group of friends. Very few of my friends are aware of this fact.

I am not saying you can't talk about your children I love to hear about my friends kids and see them as much as I see my friends alone. It can just sometimes pick at a raw nerve a little too much.

Mid 30's are horrible if you are single and it feels there is no chance of meeting someone and all those plans you made when you were a little girl aren't happening.

Tolerance on both sides is called for.

I think this friend should be cut a bit of slack and I agree wholeheartedly with what hormonal said a few posts up. A bit of empathy wouldn't go amiss here.

Hmm...nope. I'm not up for being a verbal or emotional punch bag for anyone.

And Baker I like your use of 'drone on' there to describe the OP including the subject of her children in general conversation...as we all do.

'Drone on' makes it seems much more selfish and insistent than 'talk'. If I was looking to implicate the OP as being at fault for some bizarre reason, I'd choose that expression too.

Thumbs up for exaggerating eh?

I think the fact that you refuse to not drone on about your children quite cruel.

Love the drama!

She's not got fertility issues, but I know she's hankering after a baby. Is single and mid 30s so I know it's sensitive. I don't actively not talk about my kids, but if she wasn't there it would be much more of the conversation, so I do keep it in check to a certain extent.

Please read this.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-28785054

I'm not excusing what she did but as someone who has been TTCing for 3 years this explains the feelings so well.

It's a thought provoking article and I empathise with those feelings the writer describes.
But not to the point where I am prepared to coolly accept bearing the brunt of a spiteful temper tantrum for talking about my baby amongst friends.

God, Pictish, I wouldn't want to have any struggles in lifew if I was was your friend!

There is a difference between a tantrum and the straw breaking the camels back style breakdown.

I wouldn't want to be your friend if your struggles meant bawling and shouting at me!