Flicking an unknown child for throwing rocks at terrapins

[Rafterplease]

I'm sitting in a pub and we are discussing an AIBU of one of the group.

Here's the scenario:

L is in Greece. There's a park with a pool and terrapins in it. A kid - roughly seven - is throwing rocks at the terrapins. The kid is blond but probably Greek. L is standing next to the kid and, fairly gently, instinctively flicks the kid with the back of her hand and says (in English) 'don't do that'. There was no parent in sight. The kid ran away.

L just didnt think, acted totally on instinct. She feels very guilty about doing this. Should she be beating herself up over it?

I'm not suggesting it at a parenting method, but it does children good to see that their obnoxious behaviour can provoke less than considered responses from normally calm adults.

Crouching down and explaining that hurting animals really isn't nice, 'with gentleness and care' (ffs) is bollocks. Remembering back to when my son was younger, it was the parents who did that crap when their child behaved appallingly who now find themselves with bullying gobshites for teenagers.

I totally understand the concept of modelling good behaviour. Responding to deliberate acts of violence against animals 'with gentleness and care' ain't modelling good behaviour though - it's minimising shit behaviour.

L had no parenting responsibility to the child. She's not responsible for his morality. She wasn't intervening to punish him.

She was intervening to stop an animal being hurt.

And yeah, sometimes the only language people of any age understand is a sharp shock. I remember seeing parents laughingly observe their little horrors chasing pigeons and ducks to make them fly. They didn't realise there was a nest of breeding swans tucked just out of sight.

The expression on all their faces when the angry mother swan appeared and went straight for them was priceless.

Many years ago there was a boy (X) in my daughter's year 1 class who frequently hit other children. His parents were both social workers. They were lovely people but his mother in particular struggled with the idea that it was OK to say no. I watched in wonderment one day when we were all sitting on the carpet in the classroom for a maths workshop. Another boy (Y) answered a question correctly. X was sitting right behind Y. X rarely got anything right and was clearly fed up. He reached forward and pinched/hit/otherwise hurt Y (not badly, fortunately, but obviously this was an obnoxious thing to do and completely unprovoked).

X's mother was sitting right beside him and saw what had happened. She was clearly mortified. 'Oh X', she said, 'that was.... absolutely.... not good!'

Even in extremis she couldn't bring herself to utter the word 'bad'.

So L tapped a kid's arm with the back of her hand to stop him lobbing rocks at terrapins... god but she is an abusive bitch... a loving tone uttering 'ah sweety, not nice' should have been used... she needs a damn good kicking.

Does that sum up the thread so far?

Pah!

AllMimsy, my cousin is similar.

"We don't do that" she says. "We obviously do" was the obvious response, as her darling little girl bopped another kid in the back of the head.

I was in the wrong, apparently. NomNiece was entitled not to have anyone think nasty thoughts about her. NomNiece is now 17 and is a stonkingly rude, self centred young madam with no boundaries whatsoever.

The child in this case could not speak English: then a finger wagging with a sad expression might have worked

Bwah ha ha ha ha ha! Not with any child I've ever met!

If a stranger had to step in to stop my dd throwing stones at terrapins i would be so mortified that the last thing i would do would be to criticise them for flicking

Your actions were fine, OP, and i would be at anyone who said they weren't

Do those posters who agree with a child being physically chastised by a stranger feel uneasy at this child's response? He could have any one of a plethora of additional needs or, more probable, he was frightened by what must have seemed, to him at least, an out of control and possibly drunk adult.It doesn't make me laugh at all and I do hope that the friend is spoken to either by the child's relatives or by the police. The irony of using violence to stop violence seems to be overlooked by all those who put a terrapin's fear above that of a child's. Of course, he should have been reprimanded but gently and with an affectionate tone of

It's no wonder that so many children are uncontrolled, destructive and entitled with parental attitudes like this.

I have no doubt the child ran off becuase he had been told off, not because of some plethora of additional needs usual mn bollocks

law of all things kid means there's a mother or authorised grown up somewhere

Shame they didn't stop their charge chucking rocks at animals then eh ?

The whole "discipline with gentle loving words" bollocks has created one of the most unhappy children I have ever met. His mother is totally ineffectual (very similar to the SW mother mentioned above), and he is a violent, rude brat. He was vile to the other children at playgroup, she didnt stop him. He was vile to the other children when he started school, she defended him. He is now 9, never gets invited to parties, never goes on play dates and has no friends. He is very unhappy and being lonely and unhappy makes his violence worse. Of course his mother is convinced that he is being bullied where in fact, he is the bully as a direct result of her not disciplining him and not placing boundaries.

I feel very sorry for him tbh, it will only get worse as he gets older.

I think some posters are conflating ineffectual parenting with parenting which doesn't resort to physical punishments. You don't have to smack a child or lose your temper to discipline them and enforce boundaries. You can identify a kid's behaviour as cruel or selfish without labelling them as 'brats', 'shits' or 'little fuckers'. I think it's unacceptable for people to go round hitting, smacking or flicking other people, I don't accept it from my children and I think I'd be a hypocrite if I did it myself, moreover I'd be modelling that as a way to get what you want. I'm sure many of us can give anecdotal evidence that the worst behaved/most aggressive kids at school are from families who are always shouting at and threatening to smack their kids.

yes I agree with you Bogeyface. gentle words is a bit weak and not doing them any favours. do you think he would be better rounded with firmer boundaries and some strong words.

what is wrong with "stop that".

Of course, LovePud.

Which is why conflating posters who dislike the fluffy voiced parenting style with those who beat the crap put of their kids is also of no use.

A middle line and all that. The difference between tapping someone to get their attention and thrashing the living daylights out of them has to be acknowledged at some point. Not all touching is physical abuse - though many of my students seem to think it is.

Fair point Nomama. I've found this topic very interesting and it's highlighted to me how homogenous my friendship group is, we all have very similar outlooks on this issue and tbh I'm very surprised by how many people still think physical punishment is ok.

At the risk of being not just flamed but incinerated, I think there are far worse things that a parent can do to a child than an occasional sharp slap when tempers are frayed. I'm not defending corporal punishment but I come from a generation where it was commonplace and most of us grew up all right and still love our parents.

I'm not sure anyone has said that here seriously, have they? Or have I missed a spare the rod post?

Most posts have decried the softly softly approach without suggesting a beating should have been administered, or even a slap.

Others have been angered and suggested violence, but I read most of those as deliberately OTT, showing disgust, rather than intent, illustrating the depth of feeling with a ridiculous 'I'd smack them in the face' response. But, I assumed, without actual intent or condoning such action.

I could be wrong... but prefer to maintain my naivety if I am!

At the risk of being not just flamed but incinerated, I think there are far worse things that a parent can do to a child than an occasional sharp slap when tempers are frayed. I'm not defending corporal punishment but I come from a generation where it was commonplace and most of us grew up all right and still love our parents.

This. My parents smacked me occasionally. I have a healthy respect for authority, a good work ethic and love my parents. Being smacked did me no harm at all. waits for all the people to bleat on about how i have not realised the effect it had
There is a world of difference between the occasional smack and sustained abuse and to suggest that the occasional physical chastisement of a child is in any way akin to child abuse is insulting to the children that face horrific, serious, sustained, deliberate abuse every day

then a finger wagging with a sad expression might have worked

Although Terrapins naturally look sad they don't have fingers - which is why "L" had to intervene....

I'd have done the same & I'd expect someone to do the same if they saw my kids doing it - except my kids wouldn't be doing it as they'd know what they'd get if I saw them or heard about it....

So...she backhanded a strange kid (in order to stop him doing something nasty) without even trying shouting/stepping in between/holding a hand up/giving him a "look". You really don't need a language in common to convey "NO!!!"

Reasonable (even commendable) to intervene. Totally unreasonable to go straight to violence. I wonder if this kid has, experienced other instances of it being fine to commit casual violent acts against the more vulnerable (often him)? I wonder if that's why he thinks it's fine to do it. Even at the age of 7, I knew it was deeply hypocritical of our headteacher to slap one of the school bullies saying "You must not hit people smaller or younger than yourself". Wonder what message they took away..

nocoolnames no she didn't give him a backhander, she 'flicked' him, there's a world of difference. A back hander is intended to hurt a 'flick' is like shooing away a fly and there's barely any contact, if any at all.

So...she backhanded a strange kid

You have read the thread right? Hardly "backhanding" anyone FFS....

Wonder what message they took away

"Don't be a little shit" would have been the obvious one, even for a 7 year old...

I can't get very worked up about the finer feelings of some brat entertaining himself by hurting animals.
It's not like she punched him for god's sake.

gamerchick have a for this

I never thought especially on here that I would see hurting animals as perfectly fine

No one on this thread has suggested anything of the sort. We are unanimous that he should be stopped. Just split by what method.

As for the idea that there is always someone bigger to administer a 'flick' - really?

In the first instance I'm still with a sharp "stop that". Even if he was Greek, he'd have understood, but a blond boy at a tourist spot - quite possibly English speaking.

No, she instinctively took action to stop the deliberate harm of animals.

It was effective.

Sorry can't eat them so I'll have to give it back or chuck it in the bin