to think that JL are perfectly within their rights to sell a hijab as part of 'school uniform' ranges?

[MaybeIAmJustNotReasonable]

John Lewis signed contracts to start a sale of hijabs within their school uniform range, having signed contracts with two schools in London and Liverpool. AIBU to think is actually okay, and we should accept the fact people can dress how they like, in terms with their religion?

But for what it's worth I see no benefit, need or justification for young women/girls to cover and I find silly, outdated and a bit demeaning.

But the fact is, lots of Muslim women disagree with me as is their prerogative. It's really no skin of my nose if JL sells them the uniform thy think they need.

The irony is is that covering up and sex segregation leads to more harassment not less. Even my Aunt & Uncle visiting from Pakistan had to agree that the level of ogling and harassment here as you walk down the street is pretty much non-existent. Compare that with their streets in Karachi where men stare at you in the most debauched manner and brazenly come up to sexually touch you, despite being fully covered.

Agree MistressMia. While I don't like to see half naked people (of either sex) in the street during daylight, (I just find it undignified and inappropriate) an excessive need/expectation for women to cover up leads to an obsession among men with trying to snatch a peek at what might be underneath.

Just dressing 'normally' without dressing especially provocatively leads to a healthy level of desensitisation and acceptance.

PuddingPam that is awful.

Oh what a sheltered life some of you lead. Offended about John Lewis selling hijabs? I've got big news for you then. Whispers they are not the only ones. H&M, Next, Marks and Spencers, Debenhams, River Island, TK Maxx, BHS, New Look in fact most of the high street stores have been selling hijabs to muslim women for years. You see those shawl/scarf type things you wear round your necks/shoulders - what some would call pashminis. Well plenty of muslim women including young girls purchase these from high street shops and use them to cover their hair. Therefore the selling of any scarf type cloth by any of these stores is perpetuating the 'oppression' of hijab. So Im afraid your going to have to boycott most of the high street shops until they agree to stop stocking those pesky hijabs that are flaunted by oppressed muslim women.

Oh and if you have a real burning problem with the whole concept of modesty (which some here clearly do) then what I further suggest is that you start a campaign to make it compulsory for all stores to remove long skirts or dresses, longish cardigans or tops, hmm what else - baggy trousers, tights, basically anything that is not figure hugging tight or hides skin otherwise they are promoting Islamic values. Does that sound ridiculous? Well that is how idiotic some of the posters on here sound with their fake outrage about poor muslim women being forced to wear hijab. So to stop some muslim women being forced to wear hijab you want to stop all muslim women from wearing hijab? And that makes you morally superior because...your values are better. Let me ask you what is the difference between the rantings of idiotic radicals that dream of all women covering their hair and you wishing to create a world where no MUSLIM (because its clear from the thread that there is no problem with Jewish, christian, hindu or sikh women doing it) women are allowed to. Both of you are trying to force your values down someone elses throat and both of you are trying to remove freedom of choice from women. Its interesting that some of you are bemoaning the fact that muslim women wear headscarfs in predominately muslim countries. So they shouldnt be allowed to wear them in their own countries or here - smacks a bit of cultural imperialism dont you think.

This thread reminds me of that quote by Martin Niemöller - you know the one first they came for the socialists and I did not speak out except now its...first they came for the niqabis, then they came for school girls in hijab and next they came for ME. A full grown adult female exercising her right as every other women in this country does to wear what the hell I want to wear regardless of what any tom, dick or harry thinks of it. Thankfully I havent stayed silent when other muslim women were bullied for what they chose to wear so I can borrow from a lot of my previous posts (just warning in case you see any repeats of my previous posts) because sadly these threads on what muslim women wear seem to crop up time and time again on mumsnet and the same ignorance and prejudice are on display here today.

The fact of the matter is that this whole debate is a complete red herring. The real issue people have a problem with is not with the veil or headscarves but it is essentially Islam and the presence of muslims in the UK who manifest Islam. Like a previous poster wrote its the values that are represented by the wearing of the headscarf. That is why no muslim women should be allowed to wear it whether they have chosen to or not because they must all be collectively punished for not abandoning their values and instead embracing 'ours'. And in the meantime muslim women are used to make a point and win an argument that they are not really involved in.

My point is that these crocodile tears being shed over the 'poor muslim women' are there to mask some peoples true feelings which are resentment, fear and hatred of the other. Now that I have got it off my chest that I think this whole debate was just started as an excuse to whip up some foaming Islamophobia I will try to express why I feel troubled with many of the assumptions being made here.

First off for those saying why are muslim men and women not expected to cover up to the same extent, well that one can be fired right back at you. Do men and women dress the same in this society? No. I remember an incident earlier last year when I went in to town and saw a group of 4 teens. Two males and two females. Though it was quite cold (I think it was February or March) the two young girls were wearing denim hot pants with no tights or leggings and skimpy tops. The boys on the other hand were wearing baggy jeans, jumpers and jackets. Now my problem was not with what the girls were wearing (Ive grown up in this society and believe in freedom of choice and expression so can comfortable reconcile myself with the fact that people are free to make their own choices about how they live their lives which some people here seem to still be struggling with) but with the disparity in the way the males were dressed compared to the females. Why is it that men in this society can dress comfortably and appropriately for the weather whilst women are under this pressure to always appear sexually attractive?

I have a friend who used to work in a hospital on drug trials and she used to find it hilarious that the women who were undergoing the trials (normally students who were strapped for cash) would wake up a good hour or two before the men to do their hair and make up and 'get ready' (for what I dont know) whilst the men would spend maybe a half hour if that on their appearance and general grooming when they woke up, which meant they got to stay asleep longer. My point is this society places a greater pressure on women to look attractive (primarily to men) which in my opinion is more damaging then covering up as it exploits women's insecurities and lowers their self esteem by projecting an image of beauty which is not easily attainable. This leads to them causing actual harm to themselves e.g. anorexia, bulimia etc. Examples of practices such as wearing heels, use of sunbeds, shaving/waxing, plastic surgery, which are all disproportionately used by and targeted at women. Why dont men face the same sorts of pressure women to improve how they look artificially. Isnt that oppressive to women also and supporting the patriarchy and unfortunately these practices are being exported around the world. Dont you think since these practices are more prevalent in this society that there should be a greater outcry about this instead of the general acceptance that these practices enjoy instead. Im just very cynical about the whole stance of being against hijab because its patriarchal (according to you not those who wear it) when people dont seem to be getting angry about practices that are much more damaging to women, particularly young girls.

By the way in Muslim countries you will see that actually men and women dress in a very similar manner. In the Middle East both men and women wear long flowing robes. In Pakistan both men and women wear shalwar kameez (Im sure the mens one is not called that though) though women wear more colourful and attractive ones whilst the men's ones tend to be quite bland. The problem started when muslim cultures started to be influenced by western fashion. Thats why you now see a disparity between the way muslim women and men dress but in traditional muslim families you will see that both sexes cover up to the same extent if not in an identical manner - and why should they. I cant think of any society in which men and women dress identically. even when the clothes are similar like trousers you will often find women's trousers to be slightly more fitting to flatter their figure whilst mens is more baggy and I would say comfortable.

My other problem is that you are using your own cultural baggage in your interpretation of the reasons for covering up and are trying to shove it down the throats of muslim women. Why should we take any notice of that? Hijab and niqab are not acts of subjugation or symbols of male authority to most muslim women. They are religious symbols, they are symbols of identity. For most muslim women its about saying I am a muslim and I am proud. It has nothing to do with helping men keep their desires in check that is their responsibility and the Quran makes that clear. Before the Quran mentions anything about women dressing modestly it instructs men:

"Tell the believing men to lower their gaze and be modest. That is purer for them. Verily God is aware of what they do." Holy Quran, Chapter 24, verse 30-31

Most muslim scholars have interpreted that the reason why God mentions men first is that they are responsible for guarding their own modesty. Even if a woman is standing naked in front of them they should lower their gaze and they should control their own lusts. After this the Quran mentions women.

The issue is where the wearing of certain item of clothing is supposedly about religion. It isn't, it's About the suppression of women, be it through clothing or other means.

It's oppressive, and unequal. Are men required to behave in these same ways, no. It's like taking a mans surname, men don't do it. Women are obliged/ suppressed / oppressed to do these things in the way that man are not. Why are women taught to cover their heads and then we are told oh, free choice, don't question?

It is all about the suppression of women, and fear of women's sexuality,

"Oh what a sheltered life some of you lead. Offended about John Lewis selling hijabs?"

Nice rant but the overwhelming majority of posters have said they are NOT offended. So who are you arguing against?

I wear a crucifix all the time, if this makes you not want me to care for your relative - fine, take them elsewhere

I don't care in the slightest about you wearing a crucifix but why,if you were providing palliative care for me do you need to let me know you are a Christian? If you were caring for me I hope you wouldn't say you're praying for me.

Sorry bit off topic

Cerealqueen it is about religion. Muslim women wear hijab because its part of their religion not because men have told them to (though Im sure we will get a lot of atheists coming on here saying the religion was made by men but thats your opinion). I have already told you modesty is a requirement for both men and women in Islam. It is a religious symbol just like a turban, or jewish skull cap or a crucifix. The problem is that some people want to politicise everything to do with Islam to make it out as if everything we do is just to hold two fingers up to Western values. Its not. Thousands of years ago when Western society was far more oppressive towards women and restrictive of women then muslim societies were muslim women were wearing headscarfs. And actually men were wearing turbans or covering their hair too. Like I said the problem is when muslim culture met western culture that we saw men dressing more immodestly then their female counterparts.

Another argument I have a problem with is this whole idea that hijab sexualises young girls. My question is do miniskirts, bikinis or hotpants on young girls sexualise them - all products I have seen marketed in mainstream shops for primary school aged girls. If not why not? Arent those pieces of clothing worn by adult women in part to appear sexually alluring to men. You certainly cant argue that they are worn for comfort though you may say they are a choice! I find it quite sickening when I see young girls dressed in a sexually provocative way should shops stop selling these things because it offends ME.

As a previous poster said young pre-pubescent girls are not required to wear hijab. They dont wear it out of modesty or to cover from men so I would say that it is not about sexualising them. Instead many young girls like my niece literally beg their mothers to wear headscarfs because either they want to dress up like their female relatives or they want to appear identifiable muslim because they are proud of their faith. My sister often says no to my niece when she asks to wear the headscarf to school, or to the park, library or other places mainly because she is terrified of people like those on the thread thinking she had forced her in to it. SHe mainly only wears it to the mosque or muslim events though she once refused to take her headscarf off the whole day at my parents house because she was enjoying wearing it. My point is that the reason behind young girls wearing the headscarf is often very innocent despite the attempts of some to make it in to something more sinister.

None of the things you are trying to compare the hijab to are enforced or done in the name of religion. I don't choose to tan my skin or dye my hair or wear high heels and nobody makes me. Plus, I am an adult making my own choices.

Are you saying 11year old girls are wearing veils to school because of peer pressure? Could they say to their parents "no thanks, I don't want to." ? Would that be fine?

You talk about what men wear in Muslim countries and I do see Muslim men here dressed that way sometimes. But mostly they don't. Mostly they look pretty western so I think that's a redundant comparison.

Oh and sameboat the thread topic is about john lewis selling hijabs so I think my comments are relevant especially since those who are offended by it think that JOhn lewis should be boycotted or pressured in to not selling it because they dont like the wider practice of women wearing hijab in the first place. Im saying if you dont like hijab and dont think mainstream british shops should be selling it then you better prepare yourself for a lot of hand wringing as there are plenty of high street shops that do just that. By the way it makes absolutely no difference to me whatsoever if they do stop selling hijab. A tiny fraction of my headscarfs are from high street shops. Even if John Lewis does stock them (or decided to stop) why would muslim parents purchase a plain headscarf for £6 when they could get it for a 1/3 of that price in a shop specialising in Islamic goods. For that price savvy muslim women can buy 3 headscarfs in the right place.

Zero tolerance why would a 14 year old girl contemplate having plastic surgery or tanning her skin. Is it really because she has made an informed choice that this is what is beautiful on her or is it because this is what society is telling her will make her beautiful. Just because its not done in the name of religion doesnt mean that pressure is not being exerted on young girls and women in general by society to appear a certain way. In a way that is often sexually alluring to men. Ever read about the pornification of society?

Oh and for those who are avid daily fail readers a treat for you.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-146021/Most-women-unhappy-bodies.html

It seems like the mainstream media and fashion industries have been extremely successful at making women feel dissatisfied and unhappy with the way that they look and so constantly willing to spend to improve their appearance. Why isnt the media as obsessed with the appearance of men as they are with women? Seems like there are some discrepancies here that also need to be addressed.

Another example is make up on young girls. I have seen teenage girls caked in make up and even some primary school aged girls in eye shadow and lipstick. Why? Isnt that sexualising them? And the rest of us are desperately trying to make our skin look as young as a teenagers. Now Im sure you will argue that those girls are making the choice or the school is not forcing them to wear it but that can be said for the headscarf as well. Schools are not forcing young girls to wear them but if they should choose to wear them then they are being provided with a viable choice which is acceptable to the school. Namely a plain colour which matches the uniform.

Can you answer my question please?

Also, you sound like you're saying Muslim women are only covering up because of peer pressure and that that is not a good thing.

I though they did it because for their religious values and free will etc?

Confused now.

Urrgh another one of these threads.

The sort where:

Muslims are discussed as a homogeneous mass.

Various punishments are discussed to keep Muslims in line -note someone talking about stopping Muslim girls attending school if they don't obey the uniform rule

Hand-wringing about the doom of the UK

Claims that all Muslim men are lecherous

People despite having minimal knowledge of Islam, claiming to know all about it.

Thinking that making demands as to how Muslim women should dress is somehow liberating for the Muslim woman in question.

Let's be clear - my body belongs to me, not you.

Every time someone starts one of these nasty threads you are telling Muslim women that you own our bodies and that you will despise us unless we give control of our bodies over to you.

And you call this freedom for us? You think you are somehow doing us a favour?

You talk about what men wear in Muslim countries and I do see Muslim men here dressed that way sometimes. But mostly they don't. Mostly they look pretty western so I think that's a redundant comparison.

My last point before I succumb to sleep. The majority of young muslim girls (Im talking primary school aged girls, teenagers and young women here) wear western clothing even those wearing hijab. Does a small piece of cloth really make such a huge difference? It makes me really sad if that is the case because it means that some people will never accept muslim women as part of this society no matter how much they integrate and contribute simply because of a piece of material. I remember watching a tv programme where a muslim woman went to a pub and was speaking to the people there who thought that despite the fact that she could speak English fluently, was educated and working, they didnt consider her british because she was wearing shalwar kameez. One guy even said to her she should wear a mini skirt if she wants to be considered british and then proceeded to stroke her leg. I know that is one extreme example but really some of the views here are not far off from that. Like I said its about eliminating visible symbols of Islam and muslims not about freedom for women.

Truly is my last post before I go to sleep. Zero where have i even mentioned the words peer pressure. I have said wearing hijab is a religious symbol which implies it is worn for religious reasons. Young girls sometimes wear it to look like mummy or any female in their family who wears it. Where is the peer pressure .

Someone was asking upthread about why more and more younger girls are wearing headscarves. Yes, it is true that some of them want to be seen as "grown ups", so they rush to veil, but it is also that young Muslim women all over the world are starting to ask more questions about their own destinies, and parents are sometimes keen to veil their daughters at a younger age, when they are still compliant and can be forced. Egypt's version of Islam never really focussed on veiling; now my friends there say they are being told by the Wahabiists (who aren't even Egyptian) that they have to veil. Equally, Bosnian muslim women are now being paid to veil by Saudi NGOs.

Basically (both consciously and unconsciously) they don't respect you at all. The women feel superior and the men think you are slag whores.

Crikey. Well this particular 'slag whore' managed to attend school and even do sports without having to be trussed up like a parcel to prevent me leaping on the nearest man. I don't know how my parents trusted me to sit in a maths lesson without a scarf on my head. Anything could have happened.

Pixel - do you really believe what redshifter said? Particularly when in most Muslim majority countries many women don't wear hijab - it's only in Iran, Afghanistan and Saudi that hijab wearing is legally mandated, not in any other Muslim-majority country.

Someone could come on here and swear that Muslims eat human bones and people would believe it unquestioningly.

Down - I'd like some evidence that Bosnian women are paid to wear hijab. The only evidence I could find was on a Christian evangelical website.

I did find this, about a mayor in Bosnia who wears hijab. She sounds badass, tbh: www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/rise-of-bosnian-mayor-with-a-head-scarf-challenging-assumptions-about-islam/2013/03/09/1d85bab8-7c4d-11e2-9a75-dab0201670da_story.html

Sorry, Ipity my evidence for cash-for-veils is only from the women I spoke to when I was in Bosnia, and Kosovo last year. The going rate was apparently about $30 a month, which is a lot in ex-Yugo countries. There is a lot of resentment there that "foreign" Muslims are telling local Muslims that there is only one way to observe Islam. My (Muslim) interpreter was particularly annoyed as so much Saudi money is sloshing around the Sarajevo property market, causing a lot of hotels and shopping malls to have to close their bars. He reckons the Wahhabiists see the Bosnian Muslims as "Muslim-lite"!