to think that JL are perfectly within their rights to sell a hijab as part of 'school uniform' ranges?

[MaybeIAmJustNotReasonable]

John Lewis signed contracts to start a sale of hijabs within their school uniform range, having signed contracts with two schools in London and Liverpool. AIBU to think is actually okay, and we should accept the fact people can dress how they like, in terms with their religion?

Regarding cycling shorts under uniform skirts - I did that 30 years ago because I didn't want to be showing my knickers.

As for the hijabs, why is it that anyone needs to fuss about it? JL has been selling them for ages - only recently did someone feel the need to get in a twist about it.

Next, is someone going to tell me that I cannot put my 8 year old daughter in a brassiere because she is too young? I would love to have that choice, but because she is going through precocious puberty (began developing at 5, has been being treated for it since then) it is not a choice.

I think there needs to be less judging and more introspection - we might be surprised what we learn about ourselves once we stop wasting all our time worrying about others.

There is a world of difference between a child wearing a bra for developmental reasons and having to cover their head because of their religion's attitude toward their gender.

The two things are not equivalent or even slightly the same

It is oppressive.

I don't see an issue with a shop selling school uniform selling an item of uniform. It may be something different to the normal uniforms but that doesn't make it wrong.

Personally I am not a fan of the hijab in many ways BUT it is not up to me to dictate what other people wear. As many people do wear them for religious reasons then it makes perfect sense for schools to make it a uniform option where there is a call to do so.

It's all about business, isn't it? If JL don't supply them, a specialist Muslim clothing shop will get the business instead and make the profits. If you have large Muslim population in the area where you do business, you stock products that they want to buy. Nothing un-British about it, we are supposed to be a nation of shopkeepers after all. JL are totally not unreasonable.

Having had a quick google it would seem that the JL hijab is a bit pricey for a plain one, I found some at around half that price. Are they subject to the same mark up as other school uniform? (Ie: I can buy it a damn sight cheaper elsewhere) Never window shopped for a hijab though so am probably wrong.
JL is not U at all, if the demand is there then the supply should be as well.

No they're not being unrealisable.

I am interested in why Muslim girls are wearing them younger and younger. When I was younger (25 now) it was only ever teenage girls and adult women who wore any kind of religious clothing whereas as now I see really tiny little girls with their heads covered.

It doesn't bother me but I am curious about it.

The problem is we have relativised the notion of "freedom". Head coverings are not a symbol of freedom, or choice, but of the oppression of women. Compulsory veiling in Islamic states is a major method of restricting female liberty. The impact of our acceptance of this is to abandon Muslim girls and women to a fate we would not accept for ourselves. I am always appalled when I see women defending this oppression in some misguided idea that these girls and women are exercising their freedoms. It is particularly terrible to see on children. John Lewis is endorsing female oppression and for that reason I will cease to shoo there.

Wearing a bra can be needed developmentally but I was an ironing board in year 7 and was desperate for one to be seen as a 'woman' and keep up with friends. Perfectly good reasons :) Same with the hijab: girls wear it when they become women, so the teenage girls at the school I used to teach at were generally desperate to wear it.

I live close to Rochdale which has a high Muslim population and very rarely see young girls (primary age) covering their hair. In fact the teenage girls I do see tend to wear theirs in the fashionable very high style with the folds and pleats.

I think the issue of female oppression is completely separate to the issue of whether a high street retailer is being unreasonable to break into a growing market.

I really hate seeing pre-pubescent girls covering their hair, but it really is separate problem worthy of its own thread.

I agree pointy. I suppose to a point you could argue that any uniform is oppressive if you were going down that line anyway. Some women and young girls chose to wear it rather than being forced, I do hate it when there is an expectation it will be worn but if it is genuinely their free choice then who are we to stop that choice being made?

sirzy, agreed - given that Islam started around 600 AD-ish, you can't really expect it to have evolved in the cultural sense in the way that older faiths have - it takes time. Add in the fact that women's rights are a relatively new phenomenon and I think women's rights in Islam are still very much a work in progress. We can be unhappy about that - I certainly am at times, I remember seeing a family in Typhoon Lagoon in Disney last year with the men in swim shorts and the women in full Burkini - but we can only do so much to influence it.

School uniform is not oppressive.
Covering girl's heads to ensure they are 'modest' definitely is.

you can argue all you like my personal opinion is i hate them i don't see the point of them but at the end of the day it is just that a personal opinion it makes absolutely no difference

we know muslims who dislike the veil and certainly dont allow their daughters to wear one one chaps comment was i wish to know who my wife and children are when i walk into a room not try to remember what shoes she was wearing that morning

Well, he would know as he would recognise their faces - that's like saying my nearest and dearest would not recognise me wearing a hooded raincoat.

I agree with everyone here who hates the veil, just in case that wasn't clear. Progressive Muslims with sensible attitudes about women's rights will be leading the way. Islam has only been going for about 1400 years - if we look at what was happening under Christianity round about 1400 AD we can see the scale of the problem that needs to be overcome. The modern world and modern technology should speed things up a bit, I hope.

I couldn't have put it better, hell2theno. I completely agree with your assessment. In our haste to defend individual women's rights, we forget that the "right" to wear cumbersome, restrictive, uncomfortable clothing has been imposed on women by men whose motivation is to control women and curtail their rights. I would have no problem whatsoever with the hijab, niqab, burka etc if both sexes wore them but to see one sex only doing it (surprise, surprise women!) reveals it for the deeply sexist practice it is.

autumn no one would recognise you from the back in your raincoat with your hood up

Why do little girls have to cover their heads? What's wrong with their heads? Why don't boys have to do this?
Don't Jewish boys cover their heads?

Purely personal view and I don't expect many to agree with me, but I think women's rights not to be oppressed and covered up trump commercial rights to sell. I would only agree with it if John Lewis were marketing hijabs for men as well as women. IMHO its supporting the oppression of women by men, not allowing people to dress as they wish. Quite the opposite.

we forget that the "right" to wear cumbersome, restrictive, uncomfortable clothing has been imposed on women by men whose motivation is to control women and curtail their rights

Yes.

I do not believe that we should be encouraging young women and girls to feel shame in their bodies nor to carry the responsibility to desexualise themselves as protection against a man's uncontrollable lust.

I do not think it represents 'choice.'

I don't think that just because something has cultural or religious significance, it is above reproach. Is FGM okay cos it's a cultural thing? Was foot binding? I think the hijab is just one end of that spectrum.

I dislike the idea that women need to dress "modestly" or cover themselves up. I particularly dislike the trend for younger and younger girls to cover their heads.

But I suppose JL are perfectly within their rights to sell a hijab as part of a school uniform range if it is part of school uniforms.

Sirzy
Personally I am not a fan of the hijab in many ways BUT it is not up to me to dictate what other people wear.

Oh the irony.

JL shouldn't sell these things. What next? Will they be stocking needles and scissors for at home FGM - cos it's cultural innit?

It is not a religious symbol. It is a symbol and tool of female repression. I think we do those girls a great disservice by going along with it.