to think that JL are perfectly within their rights to sell a hijab as part of 'school uniform' ranges?

[MaybeIAmJustNotReasonable]

John Lewis signed contracts to start a sale of hijabs within their school uniform range, having signed contracts with two schools in London and Liverpool. AIBU to think is actually okay, and we should accept the fact people can dress how they like, in terms with their religion?

peacefuloptimist you have so much to say yet you cannot answer simple, genuine questions.

Can a 14 year old Muslim girl tell her parents, no thanks, I don't want to cover my head? Will they say, sure that's your choice dear?

You have written a lot about social pressures on women with regards to appearance - that's another way of saying peer pressure. If you didn't intend to link that to the practice of hijab wearing, what did you mean? Sounded like you were saying we are all subject to pressures from within our societies. I logically extrapolated from that that hijab wearing is a social pressure too.

Yet elsewhere you say it is free choice. Hence

What is this obsession with muslim women in predominately muslim countries covering up. Sorry what business do you have to be pleased or displeased about women choosing to cover or not cover in a majority muslim country? SO you want to control muslim women here and in muslim majority countries too? Did you not get the memo that colonialism is over. Its not really any of your business whether the trend is for more women or less women to wear headscarfs in other countries and you certainly dont have the right to get annoyed about it. Plus both your stories sound fictitious to me. I have also been to Egypt and there are a huge number of women who do not wear a headscarf. Egypt has been run for many years by autocratic secular regimes (propped up and supported by Western governments see Tony Blair and his entreaty to Western governments to 'save' Hosni Mubarak from the will of the Egyptian people ). Its not a theocratic government and for years it has persecuted the religious elements of its society harshly and it continues to still do so. I can bring up many anecdotes also about muslim women with headscarfs being discriminated against and harassed by secularists/atheists in Egypt too but what has that got to do with the situation in the UK. I wonder also if you had any qualms about Tunisia or Turkey instituting laws that discriminated against women wearing headscarfs in predominately muslim countries. Im guessing many of the anti-choice brigade probably didnt give two hoots about women forcibly being kept out of jobs or education because of wearing headscarfs. Probably thought it was for their own good. Again I can give you anecdotes of women who have suffered under these discriminatory laws but what does that prove. Your anecdote verses mine. Round and round we go.

I think YABU, I don't want to see young girls forced to cover their head as it is oppressive.
I also don't believe any religious symbol, which the hijab is, has any place in a state school.

Am I a racist now?

my Aunt & Uncle visiting from Pakistan had to agree that the level of ogling and harassment here as you walk down the street is pretty much non-existent.

Do you seriously believe that if all the laws against sexual harassment, abuse and discrimination were wiped out tomorrow in the UK that would still be the case? Willing to take the risk? The reason why we are able to walk about without harassment here is that luckily for us there are powerful courts that take these crimes seriously and implement the laws against them. This was not always the case as we can see from the number of sexual abuse scandals that have cropped up from past 20-30 years, within the living memory of many people. I was shocked to read about sexual abuse of children in schools, hospitals and care homes, public institutions that knowingly turned a blind eye to officials abusing children. Im not trying to say this only happens in the UK (it probably occurs to a worse extent in countries where corruption flourishes and public scrutiny of those in power is curtailed) but it shows how recent the shift has been in public attitudes towards these crimes that were sadly willfully ignored by the police and those in power who should have been protecting the vulnerable.

In countries like Pakistan the problem is compounded by the huge amount of corruption. People with the right connections or enough money can get away with any crime. That is why you see sexual harassment occurring in places like Karachi not because the women are choosing to cover but because there are no consequences for men for harassing women and if there are they are not normally very serious. That is something countries like Pakistan should take from the UK. Not their fashion sense.

Can a 14 year old Muslim girl tell her parents, no thanks, I don't want to cover my head? Will they say, sure that's your choice dear?

Like most things that will come down to the individual family. I know young women who have done just that. I also know young women who gave chosen to wear the hijab even though no other females in their immediate family wear them day to day.

In the case of the young girls who are forced to wear one though do you really think banning that - in school or more widely- would achieve anything to change the deeply rooted attitudes though?

Blimey so many posts peaceful and sadly they all missed what the thread was about.
It's about the hijab being sold as a part if a uniform.
RTFT.
It's not about what adult women wear.

Within one page of the start of the thread adult muslim women were being attacked for choosing to wear hijab. There are comments littered throughout this thread like that. You could argue that the actual thread is not about the morality of young girls wearing hijab or not but rather whether John Lewis has the commerical right to sell them which we have already overwhelmingly established that they do, despite some of the naysayers. Should the thread end now? Doubt it will - what have we covered already fgm, isis, iran and saudi laws about covering. Why dont we throw halal meat in there too. Lets really get this pot of Islamophobia boiling shall we?

peaceful , i wonder if there has been a rise in the wearing of the veil /headscarf over the recent years because of the amount of anti Muslim rhetoric that has been spouted, especially post 9/11 ?

I don't live or work in a area that has a mixed religious population , so my statement above is based on anecdotal evidence from relatives who live in areas with a higher proportion of Muslims . They have said that over the last 10 years or so there appears to have been an increase in the number of women and girls you see wearing a veil . Just curious as to why this may be the case ?

You could argue that the actual thread is not about the morality of young girls wearing hijab or not but rather whether John Lewis has the commercial right to sell them
That was my impression.

I'm surprised that so few people here understand that by the time they reach school leaving age many Muslim girls have made a genuine choice to wear hijab because they value what it represents.

Oh FGS it really annoys me when threads about hijab descend into these strawman accusations that western women are telling muslim women what to do.

No one is telling muslim women what they can and can't do. Pretty much everyone has said that but people ARE allowed to discuss the reasons behind a cultural practice and express dislike for those reasons.

I'm sure there are many reasons for a young girl to wear a hijab that have nothing to do with being sexual just as there are many non sexual reasons why girls roll their skirts up on their way to school, but people are still allowed to wonder at the origin of those practices are they not?

And why this constant tit for tat over western wear over mini skirts etc Peaceful? As if those who disagree with primary school children wearing hijab are hypocrites for not complaining about mini skirts or high heels and are automatic defenders of the sexualization of girls in western culture? Of course they're not. There are plenty of threads complaining about those things too if you care to look.

Peaceful you need to calm down and realise that people aren't having a pop at muslim women or their right to wear the veil, they are simply discussing changes that have been happening tp British cultural practices in the context of gender, age of consent, secularism and pluralism. The UK has been making moves towards secularism for well over a century now so such moves away from them are bound to be discussed and peaceful, people are allowed to discuss them.

peacefuloptimist I did think about Hacidic Jews and other women who choose (or are expected or forced) to cover their hair or bodies as well as Muslim women, but I did not mention them because this thread was specifically about hijab and therefore specifically about Muslims.

And also until relatively recently, there has never been a religious minority present in any significant number where these kind of dress code requirements have needed to become a fairly mainstream issue, rather than a very localised one. It's the same with the need for halal (or indeed kosher) meat. The requirement used to be very small so it was only available in very localised areas where the local demographic supported and demanded it.

These days the requirement for halal meat is so much greater and more widespread that many mainstream restaurants and fast food outlets (and also school and hospital caterers) are switching to all halal so they don't miss out on a large sector of the market or have to cater to a minority requirement which is no longer such a minority requirement, if you see what I mean.

That has all changed and it has changed as a direct result of the burgeoning number of Muslims in the UK. In the context of this thread therefore, it was not really relevant or appropriate to mention other religious/cultural minorities.

When we see JL stocking regulation school uniform wigs for Hacidic Jew girls, or regulation school uniform coloured turbans for Sikhs I am sure we will add that into the mix.

peaceful is your username meant to be ironic? You sound very wound up. People are asking valid questions. You are ranting away about some perceived prejudice - how about calmly answering the questions instead?

The thread was nothing to do with that adult muslins wear in Muslim countries. It was about female children in the UK being made to cover their heads in order to be "modest" and people quite rightly questioning the place of this in a civilised, fair and equal society.

Equating that to adult women choosing (choosing!) to wear heels and make-up is utterly missing the point.

Actually, hell2theno was the one to claim that all veiling is oppressive to women, but I don't see her being singled out for derailing the thread.

Yet it seems to be open season to mock peaceful and claim her viewpoint as an actual Muslim woman is not at all relevant. Funny that.

Kkkkmkk

I'm guessing that's because hell2theno didn't put up half a dozen very long ranty paragraph-less (and therefore hard to read) posts that accuse people of Islamophobia. Which is a pretty serious allegation IMO.

IPityThePontipines and peacefuloptimist do you accept that there are women and girls who are being heavily pressured to wear hijab against their will?

I will go to the wall for any adult woman's right to wear whatever the hell she likes, including the hijab. Women's clothing choices should be determined by nobody but herself.

I will also go to the wall for any adult woman's right not to wear items of clothing she doesn't want to, and - as well as plenty of Muslim women who freely choose the hijab - I know Muslim women and non-Muslim women who are either forced to wear the hijab, or who are harrassed and abused when they don't.

If you are talking about the right to wear the hijab (which I fully support), in the current circumstances you also need to talk about the right not to wear the hijab, because that is what some women are facing.

peaceful has her own agenda. Of course it doesn't suit her to answer thd question of why little girls must cover up while little boys can do as they please. So she talks about Muslims in other countries and the choices made by adults and connects choosing not to wear a coat on a night out in Newcastle to a little girl wearing a veil to school because her parents tell her to.

Odd

Sorry don't know if someone has pointed this out as i only got to page 3, but there is nothing within the teachings of islam to stipulate that children should wear hijab I visited a predominantly muslim town in uk recently, and as a devout muslim i felt very perplexed by seeing babies in buggies wearing hijab. It is rare in the muslim countries to see a young girl wear it, i am not sure why in the uk this happens. In fact a woman ignorant in the mosque scolded me for the fact that my two daughters (aged 7 and 5) were not wearing it. I calmly stated there was nothing in islam to say that they should be.

I would be genuinely interestedin hearing from anyone within these communities as to what is the driving force behind this.

I think however it is good for JL to sell them as it looks neater for the school to have a uniform hijab and not fifty shades of black/navy/blue

Zero where has peaceful said that little girls "must" cover up?

Pudding - no one here is supporting or advocating forced veiling. It's been said by Muslim women on all threads like this previously, that wearing hijab should be a choice.

That's fair enough, IPityThePontipines, it's just I start to want to roll my eyes rather heavily after too many "it's a free choice, how dare you" posts, when I know from personal testimony that it sometimes isn't.

This thing of non-Muslim women being harrassed in the street to cover up makes me shudder to imagine how the young men doing this treat the women in their own families.

Madmum am not Muslim, but was having this discussion recently with family members about our own experience of recent family immigration, and it's pretty common for people who migrate here to end up more socially and culturally conservative than the people they left behind, at least for a while, possibly as a defensive response to feeling that their tradition and culture will be lost if they don't.

(This is an adult thing, I believe. People who immigrate as children often do the opposite - assimilate as quickly as possible in order not to stand out as different at school.)

Beyond religiosity, what do parents think about the health aspects of "modest" dress both for pregnant women and growing children?

Vitamin D is hard to come by in much of the UK and therefore I am constantly trying to get my children to expose flesh to daylight.

Zero I'm not your performing monkey. Another poster adequately answered your question. Many girls do stop wearing the hijab without any problems. There are also some girls like my friend who was pressured by her parents to take the head scarf off when she started wearing it as she was the only one in her family wearing it and her father thought it compromised his image as a modern, westernised Muslim. I wonder if you think that is acceptable. Also what about the many girls who stop wearing hijab not because they are against wearing it but because of bullying and prejudice they experience. Is that fine?

Frumpet I don't think there has been an increase in the number of women wearing headscarves. I started wearing one in the mid 90s and the numbers wearing the wee comparable. There has been an increase in the number of people wearing the veil but I don't think that's been because of anti Islamic prejudice but because of Muslim women becoming more educated about the religion and therefore more devout. Many young women wear veil against the wishes of their families. Once again are hear women's rights to wear what they like going to be supported or are they to be curtailed like in have seen many posters recommend on threads about niqab.

What I have noticed increase significantly though in the last couple of years is the prejudice towards Muslims. It seems like the last form of accepted bigotry. Take for example the array of offers who have made a range of outlandish and ignorant claims about women wearing hijab and the purpose behind it and yet I am the one singled out for addressing their points. Presumambly I should just say yes master no master whatever you say master

Except, peacefuloptimist, you seem to be ignoring all the instances when people (like me) point out that some women are getting pressured to wear the hijab when they don't want to - and in many cases, when they aren't even Muslim.

I would go to the wall for your right to wear the hijab. I have seen no evidence at all that you would go to the wall for my right not to.

sorry about the typos. Posting from phone.