to think that JL are perfectly within their rights to sell a hijab as part of 'school uniform' ranges?

[MaybeIAmJustNotReasonable]

John Lewis signed contracts to start a sale of hijabs within their school uniform range, having signed contracts with two schools in London and Liverpool. AIBU to think is actually okay, and we should accept the fact people can dress how they like, in terms with their religion?

You do not see Muslim mumsnetters starting threads stating that non Muslim women need to change the way they dress pudding. I shouldn't have to come out and expressly say anything I haven't endorsed that viewpoint and in fact in my posts have already stated that i believe everyone should have right to wear what they like in our free socoety. I have never come across such a thing as non muslim women being pressured to wear headscarfs (pressured by who exactly) and I have been around a fair bit so I'm doubtful that it Happens as commonly as you imply. Regardless it shouldn't happen at all. The quran expressly says that Muslim women should wear headscarf so that they are known (symbol of identity) it makes no sense for non Muslim women to wear the Islamic attire if they do not follow the religion. As for some Muslim women being pressured to wear headscarves I don't agree with that but the solution is not to strip the right away from those who do want to wear it whether school aged or adults.

In countries like Pakistan the problem is compounded by the huge amount of corruption. People with the right connections or enough money can get away with any crime. That is why you see sexual harassment occurring in places like Karachi not because the women are choosing to cover but because there are no consequences for men for harassing women and if there are they are not normally very serious. That is something countries like Pakistan should take from the UK. Not their fashion sense.

While the rule of law is obviously important, surely the underlying attitude of men towards women with regard to sexual inequality is a HUGE factor here?

As a previous poster said young pre-pubescent girls are not required to wear hijab. They dont wear it out of modesty or to cover from men so I would say that it is not about sexualising them. Instead many young girls like my niece literally beg their mothers to wear headscarfs because either they want to dress up like their female relatives or they want to appear identifiable muslim because they are proud of their faith. My sister often says no to my niece when she asks to wear the headscarf to school, or to the park, library or other places mainly because she is terrified of people like those on the thread thinking she had forced her in to it. SHe mainly only wears it to the mosque or muslim events though she once refused to take her headscarf off the whole day at my parents house because she was enjoying wearing it. My point is that the reason behind young girls wearing the headscarf is often very innocent despite the attempts of some to make it in to something more sinister.

When I was a 7yo I was dying to do everything my mother did.
She had endless cups of coffee, cigarettes, she drank wine and wore her hair up in a very glamorous bun. Think Sophia Loren, but prettier.
She also had an extensive library of books I was very keen to get into. There was Madame Bovary, All Is Quiet on the Western Front, a huge philosophical treatise called Love and many diet books.

But she would not let me. I was far too young to emulate all those things I wanted. And she was right.

A young girl does not need her modesty protected by a piece of cloth and a good mother will say everything when the time is right.

One of the best things about the UK is a poor woman can take a rich man to court for sexual assault and can win the case which results in him being punished for the crime. There are many countries in the world (many of which are not muslim) where this is unheard of and a dream. The rule of law is incredibly important not just to protect the rights of women but men also. My point earlier was that even here there are men with chauvinistic or misogynistic views about women. Just look at the relationships board to see multiple examples of abusive men. However, the law and courts is what prevents these men from acting on their worst impulses (not in all cases) and makes sure these abuses are dealt with. It's not as one previous poster for suggested because in one place women wear headscarves and in another they don't.

I'm doubtful that it Happens as commonly as you imply

I'm not implying, peacefuloptimist, I'm stating it outright. I talked upthread about some of my younger relatives who have stopped going out alone in the places they live because they have been harrassed by gangs of young Muslim men for not covering their heads, and then abused when they point out they are Hindu, not Muslim so don't have to cover. This isn't a rumour. It's an established fact, and your "doubt" doesn't make it magically disappear.

Coffee people have different parenting styles. You just have to look at mumsnet to see their I'd abide diversity of opinions about how to bring up children. Just because someone doesn't do something the way you would it doesn't mean they love their child any less then you love yours. there was a programme on channel 4 about Britain's child genius or something like that and some of the parents on there I thought went too far in pushing their kids. However I can't question that they want the best for their child and their actions are motivated by their love and concern for their children. As for what a makes a good mother I think as long as the children are healthy , happy and develop in to productive individuals that is what matters.

However, the law and courts is what prevents these men from acting on their worst impulses

But where do these 'worst impulses' come from? I would argue that in a lot of cases it's to do with perceiving women as less powerful, less equal, and therefore fair game as targets for bad behaviour.

Coffee people have different parenting styles. You just have to look at mumsnet to see their I'd abide diversity of opinions about how to bring up children. Just because someone doesn't do something the way you would it doesn't mean they love their child any less then you love yours. there was a programme on channel 4 about Britain's child genius or something like that and some of the parents on there I thought went too far in pushing their kids. However I can't question that they want the best for their child and their actions are motivated by their love and concern for their children. As for what a makes a good mother I think as long as the children are healthy , happy and develop in to productive individuals that is what matters.

My point earlier was that even here there are men with chauvinistic or misogynistic views about women. Just look at the relationships board to see multiple examples of abusive men.

Yes there are of course plenty of misogynists in the UK. But what I have noticed is that in general, it has got a lot better than it was even in my parent's generation. What the factors are which have led it in this direction exactly, I'm not sure, but it will probably have something to do with boys being actively educated that girls are equal and women's increasing empowerment in society. Not that there isn't a long way to go still, of course.

Pudding your friend has my sympathies. You should advise her to go to the police if she has problems with harassment. They are the proper channel to deal with it and their involvement would probably put a halt to it.

So you think my mother should have let me have cigarettes, coffee, wine and Madame Bovary when I was 7 because I wanted it?

And it would have been just a different parenting decision?

It's happened to a number of my relatives, peacefuloptimist, and the police have known about this problem in various places for a while, but it hasn't stopped yet. It is dangerous to be seen calling the police while you are being harrassed, and if you call them afterwards, the men have long gone.

I agree with getting the police involved, but another proper channel would be for these young men's families to tell them to cut it out.

I agree that education is needed both to empower women and to educate men to have a greater respect for women. However in many of these countries there are complex problems with security and equal opportunities for everyone. If people's basic needs like food, shelter and security are not being met do you think they will have time to think about or ponder equality between the sexes

If people's basic needs like food, shelter and security are not being met do you think they will have time to think about or ponder equality between the sexes

You cannot be serious.

If people's basic needs like food, shelter and security are not being met do you think they will have time to think about or ponder equality between the sexes

...yes? It's well-established that in conditions where women have free access to things like education and contraception, and have control over their own bodies, that their children have a much better chance of survival.

Plus, basic human rights (which is what equality is) should not ever be dependent on waiting for perfect conditions. They would never arise.

If people's basic needs like food, shelter and security are not being met do you think they will have time to think about or ponder equality between the sexes

It's an interesting question. Fortunately for us in the UK there's no excuse with regard to poverty for not being educated.

Yes, let's see - if we're poor and the house is falling down and there's a drought then as a woman I ought to submit to my master because he knows best.

Have a bit of a word with yourself peaceful.

You have to have a stable government that actually cares about human rights though rather than consolidating and maintaining their own power. I dont understand why it is difficult to understand that where there is a lack of order, or development there will be abuses of women's rights. Its hardly surprising that the parts of the world where women have the best opportunities are the ones that are the most developed.

I dont understand why it is difficult to understand that where there is a lack of order, or development there will be abuses of women's rights.

I don't think anyone finds this difficult to understand. What most of us find difficult is the thought of sitting back and accepting this as inevitable.

On the previous matter: since your "go to the police and it will be sorted" re harrassment by gangs of Muslim men in the street is, alas, not a solution that has worked yet, do you have any other suggestions to offer?

Do girls believe they have the best opportunities if they are brought up in a culture with adults who believe that covering them from a young age, teaching them in a certain way, prevent them from worshipping with men, and following a legal framework which prevents them from benefiting in the same way as men? Or are they indoctrinated at a young age that they have a secondary role as dictated by men?

No coffee but if you are poor and living in a country where there is no security or rule of law then the sad fact of the matter is you are going to be more vulnerable to abuse. Even if your family wanted to protect you or wanted you to be educated etc they may not have the ability to keep you safe or provide you with the opportunities to be educated. Take for example the Congo. I watched a heart breaking programme once about the high levels of rape due to the instability caused by war. Many women had been raped multiple times. Is the solution simply to educate the soldiers that raping is wrong. I would argue that they probably know its wrong. They are doing it because they can get away with it.

Pudding I used to live in a predominately white area as a child. After September 11th my families house was egged. Walking up and down the road to school if there were young men on the road I would have stones thrown at my legs and get called things like terrorist, Iraqi or Afghan despite the fact I am clearly of a different race. If I had gone to their families they would have laughed in my face. The only real solution was to go to the police. It did not stop it but this particular group terrorised everyone on the street for different reasons (my hindu neighbours had lots of problems with them too) and eventually they were moved out of the area which significantly improved things. If your relative knows the family of the young men and thinks it will make a difference by all means tell her to go inform them of what they are doing. However to get them properly punished she has to go to the appropriate authorities. That is the police. Cant advise more than that.

You think I don't know about that kind of thing, peacefuloptimist, and haven't experienced similar? None of that excuses these young men terrorising young women, too.

And no, we don't know the families of the young men involved. If we did the police would have had their names already. What would really help is if these young men's families were telling these young men that it isn't up to them to control what women wear, and it's also not up to these young men to decide for other people what their faith observances should or should not be. This is not getting through.

Pudding -why is the unfortunate harassment your family is suffering peaceful's problem to solve? Why should she be held responsible for the behaviour of a group of men she's never met?

What exactly do you want peaceful to do and why exactly do you feel peaceful is obligated to do it for you?

You are making demands from a stranger on the Internet because she shares the same religion as the people you have a problem with.

To use an example, would you do this with a Polish MNer if the men in question were Polish?

To those still arguing the point that wearing a headscarf is a choice, and they themselves know this because they make this choice, this is a fallacious argument. Wearing a hijab cannot be taken out of context of the fundamentally oppressive context of Islam. The purpose of covering in Islam is to enforce "modesty" on women (but as we note, not on men) and to prevent the inflaming of male passion. It is instructive that no-one who isn't Islamic expresses their "freedom" by choosing to wear a hijab. It is not the same as choosing to wear a beret today, or a bobble hat tomorrow.

And if it is true that those on this thread who wear the hijab genuinely feel that they have a choice to, then I would urge them to make the choice NOT to. Because the result of supposedly "choosing" to wear the hijab is that you are promulgating via visual stimuli the oppression of women. You are making a statement that women are 2nd class and that you accept this position.

I would add as an aside that people most frequently encounter veiled women in the UK is when they are at their most incongruent - i.e. shuffling around John Lewis weighed down with bags of shopping. In the west. Behaving like westerners. And so it's hard not to disregard in that context some sort of deeply pious interpretation of Islam that would align with wearing the hijab or other covering.