to think that JL are perfectly within their rights to sell a hijab as part of 'school uniform' ranges?

[MaybeIAmJustNotReasonable]

John Lewis signed contracts to start a sale of hijabs within their school uniform range, having signed contracts with two schools in London and Liverpool. AIBU to think is actually okay, and we should accept the fact people can dress how they like, in terms with their religion?

I'm torn on this one.

On the one hand I can understand the arguments for banning the hijab in primary schools at least, as it's very disturbing to think that some people view pre-pubescent girls as beings capable of arousing sexual feelings in men.

However I suspect that because we've gone too far now with allowing expression of religion, there would be a backlash and accusations of Islamophobia that would drive muslims more towards orthodoxy rather than liberalism.

When I was at school in the 70's and 80's, my primary school had no uniform, thus my parents stopped me wearing skirts from the age of about 7. However when I gained entry to a selective secondary school, there was no option of trousers in the uniform policy and so my parents reluctantly allowed me to wear skirts again, although they were mid-calf length with knee length socks so no flesh was visible. I think them being forced to accede to this actually made them a bit more relaxed and I had a bit more freedom.

Wrt to the burkini, again conflicted. I was never allowed to take part in school swimming due to the bare flesh (and boys seeing me) issue, so always felt left out. Would it have been better to have been able to take part, albeit covered ? I think so.

Best of all though would have been to have maintained a no exceptions policy. This is the uniform. These are the activities.... All must adhere and take part unless there are any medical circumstances to the contrary.

TheDiet

Thanks for answering my earlier question about younger girls wearing hijabs, doubt you saw it but your post answered it. Makes sense, that they want to wear them because mums/older sisters do and it's seen as grown up. Like me and my Nanna's high heels which she threw away despite only having one granddaughter when I was little.

JL selling hijabs as part of a school uniform doesn't bother me, as I said in my previous post. They're wanted so JL are supplying them.

My opinion on children and religion is tunderstandingbe taught about them (all religions) but not expected to adhere any rules until they are old enough to make that choice on their own.

I agree.

That choice should then be respected

Disagree with this though. It annoys me that it seems to be given that we should respect peoples beliefs no matter what. No matter how ridiculous or nasty they are. I don't respect some peoples racist, homophobic etc. beliefs or beliefs in things like tooth fairies, Zeus, astrology or homeopathy for example.

I don't disrespect people because of their race, sexuality etc. but I can (and probably should) disrespect certain beliefs especially if people choose them.
I try to treat people with respect and understanding no matter how silly, nasty or dangerous their beliefs but in my mind, no, I probably will not respect them as much. Why should I?

All this guff about muslims being somehow morally superior is really irritating.

I've seen the 'modestly dressed' men queuing down the street at lunchtime to visit the brothels in the red light districts of Muslim countries.

Hackman a uniform is a uniform. If you're going to start accommodating religious preferences you may as well not have a uniform at all

Hmm. We're lucky that the armed forces didn't subscribe to your point of view or the 1.2 million Indians who volunteered to fight in WW1 would have been a problem. The Germans had not seen many turbans back then!!

Yes, the belief that wearing a hijab will stop men raping you is shocking. "Wearing a hijab protects my chastity"

No, it doesn't! It also affects other women. Why should other women be less chaste because they don't wear one.

I agree that the hijab is modest, protects my chastity, allows me to be judged by what is within rather than my beauty. I see it as a symbol of feminine empowerment.

This type of brainwashing is so deluded. People who see you make a value judgement that what is within you is complete stupidity to subscribe to a value system that places you as unequal to men. Islam is right, some women are deficient in intelligence:

Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri: Once Allah's Messenger went out to the Musalla (to offer the prayer) o 'Id-al-Adha or Al-Fitr prayer. Then he passed by the women and said, "O women! Give alms, as I have seen that the majority of the dwellers of Hell-fire were you (women)." They asked, "Why is it so, O Allah's Messenger?" He replied, "You curse frequently and are ungrateful to your husbands. I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religion than you. A cautious sensible man could be led astray by some of you." The women asked, "O Allah's Messenger! What is deficient in our intelligence and religion?" He said, "Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?" They replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her intelligence. Isn't it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?" The women replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her religion." (Sahih Bukhari, Hadith 293)

I really don't like the hijab or anything like it at all.

But if children are wearing them I can't see why JL shouldn't sell them. But can't the schools just specify a colur and shade and style to be worn in? Why would you need to have them within the school uniform range? I thought they were just I bit of cloth which is wrapped round the head. Or are they more complex than that. I haven't a clue really.

I suppose girls would be wearing different materials and textures and the school want a hijab that is exactly the samefor everyone but It wwouldn't surprise me if schools insisted on an embroidered school logo soon.

Parents will end up paying £30 or something for a bit of black cloth which they probably have plenty of at home anyway.
So it goes.

I think they are actually £6

Noones acting morally superior about their choice to wear hijab Bogqueen. Maybe take a step back and actually listen to the opposing view. If someone believes a certain translucent blouse is seductive and is not exactly modest does that make her morally superior?

Cherriesandapples, you've no need to be shocked because no one here is suggesting that a hijab stops a woman from being raped. That's an over reaction. I believe that covering myself detracts attention from my body. That's my opinion. You are welcome to disagree but noone is making a judgement about you that you are less chaste.

Im asking you to please stop being so judgemental of my dress sense.

...protects my chastity...

So, is my chastity not protected because I don't wear one then? Why, and from whom, does one need their chastity protecting? IMHO it's like saying don't wear a short skirt, skinny jeans or a singlet, because you are responsible for men looking at you. No, men are responsible for looking at you, not women for wearing wtf they want. And this, this is exactly why I believe it to be oppressive.

Sirzy: "Basically "we will stop you being told what to do, by telling you what to do"

But actually, telling pupils what to do is exactly what schools do all the time. We're not talking about banning people from wearing this stuff out of school, we're talking about what happens in school.

A lot of people have been talking about the wider issues of them being worn though. I doubt most of those so against it are against it only in school.

Either way as schools are aware that pupils (male and female)will want to wear religious headdress then it makes sense for them to make them an acceptable part of uniform as long as they meet the uniform code colours/materials etc.

Two muslim girls in who wear hijabs are in a nasty little gang at DD's school. The ring leader tells members of the gang to break school rules or does so herself (e.g. vandalise school property or steal) while the others watch. Then the ring leader tells a new member of the gang to own up to the offence and take the punishment from the school, and they are all sworn to secrecy. Such hifh morality those Muslim girls have (and the ringleader is from a Christian family.)

Chastity and integrity are about what is inside and our actions being just as good and right even when others cannot see what we do. It is nothing about appearances. I do not trust anyone who says they should be judged as having good character because of what they cover up! It is asking to believe a deception and totally wrong.

A person's choice of clothing and how much of their body they choose to cover has nothing to do with their good character or any other choices. It can say a lot about what they (or that their family) WANT others to think about them.

littleducks: "hackmum- so Jewish boys shouldn't be allowed to wear caps or Sikh boys turbans either? Or girl s from Christian sects those small headsets either?

Would you prefer rules like in French schools?

Or is just hijab that is an issue.... In which case why?"

I can't say I'm wild about any religious adornment or symbols being worn in schools, but I do have a particularly strong objection to the hijab, which isn't worn as a symbol of religious devotion, but to stop men lusting after women - an idea which is so horrifically offensive to women that I don't think it should be encouraged in an educational setting.

(On the question of turbans, the law actually recognises Sikhs as a racial group rather than a religious one, which means that if you ban turbans you're breaking the race discrimination law, which opens up a whole other can of worms.)

I have been harassed by Asian men in certain areas both in this country and abroad. I always wear long shirts / trousers but am blonde. These views do affect other women. I never seem to get harassed by White British men so from my personal experience I feel that promoting the view that anyone who doesn't wear items like the hijab are immodest and therefore it's somehow okay to assume that they are asking to be harassed or worse is oppressive to women.

However I suspect that because we've gone too far now with allowing expression of religion, there would be a backlash and accusations of Islamophobia that would drive muslims more towards orthodoxy rather than liberalism

WSS

I have to get back to my Sunday lazing around in the garden plans so take leave of this thread. All I can request of others is:

Don't be so judgemental about others choice of clothing.

The world is diverse and you will have decent girls wearing hijab and nasty ones, as described by a user above. Just as you'll have decent girls wearing skirts and not so decent ones.

Finally, just live and let live. Don't force your views on the women who choose to wear the hihab by dictating what you think they should br wearing.

I don't understand the blouse analogy

All the hijabs, niquabs and even burquas in the world make no difference to someone's morality and integrity. A Muslim woman could walk down the street in a bikini and I would not think any more or less of her.
So upthread it was stated that the little girls whose heads were covered would leave school with certain desirable attributes which a £6 headscarf from JL provides. I think that's a ridiculous argument. The headscarf makes no difference to a child other than singling out for being a girl within a certain culture which sexualises women under the guise of morality.

I was having a similar debate In a pub beer garden the other week with a muslim friend. He was earnestly arguing that " everyone should dress modestly, not just women. When I burst out laughing, he got annoyed, and could not see why.
He was wearing dayglo skimpy shorts and a mesh singlet.

I personally think that a lot of this Daily Mail attitude is just fear of the unknown. I don't know any Muslim women who wear one so I have never had a conversation with anyone who does and can tell me why. Yes to me it looks like oppression but then I don't have all the facts.
Think this whole kickers in a knot of what John Lewis sell is Daily Mail fuelled by people who are forgetting that John Lewis is a Jewish company (as an aside they were opposed to Sunday opening on religious grounds) who therefore may have a better understanding of wearing religious headgear than others.

it's all about the men though isn't it? Cover yourself up, protect your chastity, don't inflame the men. If you show your hair you're some trollop not worthy of respect by a man.

FFS this is Britain in the 21st century. I am as tolerant as the next person, but I'm not going to tolerate blatant misogyny and sexism.

Personally I think France has the right idea.

And if the community I lived in was in a Muslim country I would respect their traditions and cover up if it was necessary

Wow! Are you saying that muslims should respect the traditions of this country and not cover up?

Should they not "cover up" if they are living in a non-muslim community? Just wow!

cover up if it was necessary

And just when and why, would it be necessary?

I'm not sure that fashion should be allowed to dictate school uniform, and the hijab is fashion - plenty of muslim women don't wear it, they vary in style by country, and TBH there's nothing that it covers that a good wooly hat/slightly modified baseball cap couldn't, therefore it's fashion.

If there is a uniform, then it should be a uniform for all. Outside of school wear what you like, in school wear the uniform.

The problem is that that'll make extremists pull their kids out of mixed schools and place in schools where the hijab is the uniform and I don't know what you can do about that - enforcing that boys and girls can't have different uniform choices would help though - if everyone had to wear the same uniform, then they'd have to make the choice of boys wearing the hijab, or girls not wearing one, but I can't imagine that ever happening if we can't even agree that girls should always be allowed to wear trousers.