to think that conforming to a specific gender

[DoubtfireDear]

isn't a bad thing? Or that "non conforming" isn't something to feel superior about?

DS is a 4 (nearly 5) year old boy. He likes trucks, cars, pirates and spiderman. He runs wild, makes lots of noise, and wears blue/red/green and denim. He likes digging in sand, waving sticks about and being what would be described as a "typical" boy.

He wouldn't let you near him with a pink t-shirt, dolly and pram and is far too fidgety and impatient to do crafty things. He has never been interested in princesses or "typical" girl stuff.

I haven't ever pushed him in a particular direction, I'd never say "you can't have that, it's for girls" it just seems to be built into him.

Sometimes on MN when people talk about having girls who roll about in muck and play with trucks, or boys who like to dress as a disney princess or want to have a dolls house for their birthday, they gush as if it's something to be extra proud of, as if it trumps the "normal" kids.

Do you not think that, if your child has a lot of reinforcement outside the home to one type of play (e.g. by children of the same gender actively wanting to play same gender play with them), it's worth encouraging all types of play with them?
DS loves, loves, loves cars. We've spent a few weeks away recently and several people gave him cars. So that was mainly what he had to play with. He didn't have a doll there and didn't try to feed or change nappies on his teddies. But now we're home and he has a doll at home (and I don't know anyone else locally who has bought their DS a doll, and I struggled to find him a boy doll, which was originally bought to encourage him to shower), and he's feeding, burping and trying to change the doll - he has the specific toy, and a little sister. So if we hadn't bought him it, we'd have assumed he didn't want to play at parenting.

I think some of gender is innate. Maybe lots of it is social conditioning but there is definitely some part that is down to being male or female IMO.

There is absolutely no way to know. Unless you are raising your child in your basement, with no TV, internet, trips to the park, relations, societal influence at all. No clothes or toy shops, no gendered stuff in your house (so you and any partner/housemates need to also have been raised in a basement). Obviously no childcare of any sort, no food with labels on it for children. Sounds exhausting.

People think things are innate because we all overestimate that in gender and underestimate our own conditioning. DD, for example, is pretty, of course she is . She is also very tall for her age, very, very strong and tough (falls down, gets up). Guess which is constantly commented on by people? In fact, when she falls, and I shout, "shake it off" and she does, there are faces everywhere. I wonder if that would be different if she was a boy...

I just don't recognise the attitude you're describing, OP. Are you perhaps misinterpreting other people's pleasure that their child challenges gender stereotypes as some kind of implied criticism that yours doesn't?

No-one is criticising how you are raising your DS, not on this thread anyway, and probably not anywhere else either. Just pointing out ways you might not realise where he is being influenced. No-one said that's a bad thing; it's how most people raise their children and unless there is active teaching on your part that "girl things" are bad and he should avoid them, I don't see that you're doing anything wrong.

I hope you're not mistaking discussion and debate as criticism; it's really not.

There are dolls at his grandparents' house, he doesn't give them a second glance. The ones at my house have been put away, but only because he hadn't paid any attention to them for ages and I was decluttering. I've bought him baking sets, a water table, lego, he has girl characters from his favourite films as well as boy characters and one of his favourite shows is powerpuff girls, but the main things he shows an interest in are vehicles and emergency services and Spiderman and Batman. I've bought him things relevant to all his interests, it's just that none of them are heavily feminine.

Annie No, as generally I'm a lurker on the threads, not really participating. It's not even that they criticise anyone else directly, it just seems to be an attitude of superiority because their child is so "different". Maybe I'm wrong, which is why i asked if I was being unreasonable, but my thread has gone in another direction now.

Mrsterry that is suggesting that people are born 'gender neutral' and it's only environment and society that influences what you play with etc?

sleeps with butterflies-

before the age of 3 had he never watched tv? cartoons? Seen characters fight? Tv and film is very gendered- boys fight off the baddies and rescue the girl. Star wars- the boys run around with those laser stick things while the girl simpers. Karate kid, Teenage mutant ninja whatevers, there's a lot of this sort of sword play in children's tv. Even Tom and Jerry...

Been to nursery? To a park? In contact with other children who might have given him the boys fight idea?

Never seen a girl fight? Probably because the parents stop it because fighting isn't appropriate for a girl, or in the playground they're told its for boys.

My older DD loved cars and helicopters ("cop cop" was among her first words), was very physical, didn't care about clothes,hated dolls and soft toys (when she was 3 she gave them all to newborn DD as she didn't want them). Liked trains, climbing, hates reading, likes maths and science. Where does that put her? She's showing "typical boy" behaviours- and often it's assumed she's a boy by members of the public. What am I supposed to do? I can't dismiss her high energy activities as "typical boy" when people comment….DO I admit she's odd?

Nope, it's just what she likes. SHe's a whole person, not a gender...

I've bought him things relevant to all his interests, it's just that none of them are heavily feminine. This is for the the crux of it. Why are baby dolls, pink and suchlike 'feminine'. They aren't; colours have no gender and parents are both genders.

A little boy once came up to DD and said she shouldn't be playing with cars in a toy shop. I was actually holding my car keys in my hand at the time. Cars aren't gendered. He got that from somewhere and she heard it from him.

On this thread people have used terms like girly girl and Tomboy and feminine and so on. Our children hear these words. ALL THE TIME.

Another rant of mine. DD likes Toy Story. You can get 'girls' clothes with all the characters on them but the 'boys' clothes just have the male characters generally. Because, as marketers are fond of saying, "girls will wear boys but boys won't wear girls". I know a little boy who was pilloried for wearing a Star Wars T with all the cast including Leia.

Freya No, that is not saying that only society has an influence. It's saying that we cannot possibly know.

I am very glad that DS seems to like pretending to be a parent. I'm glad he likes pink or at least lets me dress him in it. I'm very much NOT glad that even well meaning people say proudly "oh he's such a boy" for rejecting a cup. I don't see why cups have to be boy cups and girl cups, it is such a waste of money to try and persuade parents to buy two sets. I don't want people to encourage my children to reject perfectly good cups/clothes/toys based on adults' ideas of what boys and girls should do.
And I want my DS to learn to be a good parent, and to think that women can operate diggers, and my DD to learn to mend and drive cars, and to think that men can be nurses.
So yes, I'm happy that DS didn't reject a pink cup, and I'll be happy if people give DD cars or a toy work bench.
Is that wrong?

I find the way so many MNers write about gender stereotyping so dispiriting.

Fact is, things have got severely worse since I and my partner brought up our children and tried to avoid such stereotyping as much as we could. Societal gender stereotyping of children - I find now we have GC - is nowadays appalling, and appallingly ubiquitous, driven I suppose by our wonderful market-based economic system as well as by the enduring and self-reinforcing nature of the patriarchy. And so many of you MNers seem not to notice what's going on. Makes me feel sad. We're going backwards. And so many of you don't even notice.

Pink. Worth thinking about because colour gender-assignment is so plainly and obviously culturally determined rather than innate. Anyone who doubts that, check out, for instance, the picture of Queen Victoria with Prince Arthur dressed in pink on Wikipedia's 'Pink' page ... or read, 'In the 19th century... pink was seen as a masculine colour'. Lots of evidence for this, easy to find. 100 years ago and more ago, pink was masculine. Now it's feminine? So? Well, it shows there's no innate gender choice as far as colour goes. What other explanation then, given that there is gender colour-stereotyping and lots of your girl-children choose in line with it? Has to be nurture, given that it's not nature. No?

So, then, what about all the other gender stereotypes? Might they be down to nurture rather than nature? Yes, of course. Go figure. Engineering? 'Hard' science? Technology? Maths? (News just in; first ever female recipient of Fields Medal! Huh?! Wtf?) Child-rearing? Think about it.

Is 'non-conforming' to gender stereotypes something parents can 'feel superior' about, then, in OP's words? I confess, I do feel I and my partner did well with our children in helping them avoid some of the gender stereotyping that assailed them as they grew up. The results were good, I can report now they're grown and parents themselves. Not 'superior', though ... no; I'm sad, rather, that our DGC now are faced with even more obstacles than our DC had to face.

And, it seems, so many of you MNers posting here are part of the opposition. Urgh. Sad. Dispiriting.

I've seen adults make girls sit nicely in a restaurant, but allow boys to run riot because they are boys and can't be expected to do the same. Using gender to excuse good/bad behaviours, or blaming a certain behaviour on gender.

This is a really important point. Take a look at this

or this to make you think about how we speak to boys.

Then there's about how we think about girls.

Makes me think anyway.

When i was with xp, my son was very "boyish" and my daughter "girlish", as my homophobic, sexist xp would push them toward the "correct" gendered activities. At age 1-2 and 3-4. Then i left. And im very unconcerned with maintaining gender stereotypes. And they both now display a wide range of "girly" and "boyish" preferences. Because they choose what they like. My daughter loves sparkles and hello kitty and minnie mouse, and wearing boy clothes, showing off her big muslces and introducing herself as spider man. My son likes to wear my shoes, do ballet, wear glittery nail polish, dress up as captain america, drive his toy digger, smash cars togetber, show of his big muscles and tell me that jenny likes him but he doesnt like her because darren is his boyfriend. And they are both so relaxed and comfortable with what they like. So for me, i have seen the effects of enforcing gender stereotypes and the difference it has made to my two to be allowed to be free from that to some degree.
I think maybe the gushing or smugness you feel.from posters saying their kids dont.conform is probably not gushing and smugness, but relief that their kids arent going to restricted or shamed for their non conforming preferences, as perhaps they were as children?

Oh, and just to add I'm not smug or superior about DD's choices, but I am very proud that she is doing what she likes and wants to do, and not bending to peer pressure or doing things she doesn't want to because she's a girl and "should" be behaving that way.

OP, nowhere have I, or any other parent even suggested that you and your son are 'lesser' in any way for him being gender stereotypical. I would suggest that this is coming from some unconscious issue within you.

The whole point about gender is that it's false. Your son might like vehicles because he is a child who happens to like vehicles, nothing to do with gender,or he might like vehicles because of the 'thousand paper cuts' effect of living in a gender-enforcing society. It's chicken and egg stuff. The only thing that is for certain is that the idea that vehicles are 'masculine' is an artificial construct.

Sleepswithbutterflies, how on earth can gender be innate in your son through his interest in weapons and vehicles, when those are man-made things?! Cars have only been around for a hundred years or so - I don't think their invention somehow magically retrospectively altered the course of genetic evolution, did it?

Oh for goodness sake, I have never said that anyone on this thread accused me of being lesser. My point, as I have now said several times, was that I have noticed it whilst lurking on other threads. I have also repeated that I'm putting phrases like "typical boys" and "girly girl" in quotation marks because
those are terms used generally in society, they are not terms which I use when speaking to my son, or even when describing him, except in the case of this thread to try and convey my point.

You are correct, my son likes vehicles because he just so happens to like them, as a child, not as a boy. That's what I've been saying the whole time, I've never pushed him in that direction, it's just what he likes. Some posters think I have encouraged him in that direction because I think that cars are for boys, that's not the case, as I have said, more than once now.

My point, in my OP, was that I have been on otger threads on Mumsnet, where a parent has been somewhat overjoyed that their little boy decided to go to the shops wearing a pink fairy dress- well good for him for being eho he wants to be, and good for the parents for not quashing his little personality just to conform to what is seen as "typical" boy behaviour, but I just feel that that's what anyone should be doing for their children. The fact that a parent lets their daughter climbtrees and wear combat trousers is no more of a big deal or any more admirable to me, than the fact that my son does, and I allow him to do such things, but some parents (on other threads, not this one, to be clear) would have you believe that they're doing something exceptional, when they're not, they're parenting a child just like everyone else.

If I have inadvertently influenced my son towards his 'boyish" things, fair enough but it doesn't make him any less of a child, or me any less of a parent if you see what I mean.

You said that at 20.38pm. Only you have mentioned anything about inferiority.

Not really sure what your point is.

Yanbu. Dd (3) loves everything pink and 'girly' and I'm not going to insist she stops liking it just because it's anti feminist or stereotypical etc.

LoveIs no one has said that the colour pink is anti feminist! Where did you get that from? It's just a colour.

To the nature/nurture point: scientists are pretty clear now that male/female brains are almost the same when they are born. One study I saw cited said the difference was about 0.5% or something. It's societal and cultural conditioning that actually causes the brain's pathways (not clear on the correct terminology here!) to change and adapt.

I have tried, as far as is possible, to raise DD in a gender-neutral manner and to watch adverts and tv programmes in a critical way (we often comment on how in toy adverts only boys or only girls are shown playing with the toy - this began when she desperately wanted the 'Gross Magic' set for Christmas and queried why only boys were showing using it - and making girls scream - in the ads). She likes a wide variety of stuff.

However, I do notice (and I think this might be what you are getting at, OP? Excuse me if I've got hold of the wrong end of the stick here) that other people give her tons of praise when she makes stereotypically 'boy' choices.

For example, we went to Warwick Castle. In the shop there was a wall full of pink princess stuff and a wall full of grey knight stuff - she chose a soft mace/morningstar from the 'boy' section, with which she had great fun whirling it around her head. Our friends thought this was fantastic... whereas if she'd chosen a pink fairy wand I don't think they'd even have commented. She is into lots of 'boy' stuff as well as 'girl' stuff, but it's only the 'boy' stuff that people comment on, generally approvingly.

I've come to the conclusion that this is because 'boy' stuff is generally considered better, of higher value, and pink stuff is seen as being 'a bit crap'. So I do tell her that pink (which she professes to hate) is just another colour, and there's no such thing as 'boys stuff' or 'girls stuff', it's just 'stuff'. I don't see why some 'girls stuff' (generally the craft, dolls and dressing up - I reject utterly the notion that toy cleaning and cooking equipment is 'girls' stuff) should be devalued.

And I've used the word 'stuff' far too often in this post...

Sputnik, I've been told off by a few 'friends' who insist that buying anything pink for a girl is going to make her anti feminist
Although apparently pink for a boy is absolutely fine.

I suspect both you and your son's choices are far more influenced by the gendered world you live in than you think.

That's not a personal criticism. No one is immune, even if they are deliberately trying to reject gender roles. It's insidious and it starts from day one. sleepsuits saying mummy's little angel in pink, daddy's little monkey in blue.

They did a study where they dressed infants in either blue or pink sleep suits. They were not told what sex the babies were. Babies dressed in blue were treated more rough and tumble, and more often offered trucks etc, while babies dressed in pink were treated more gently and more often given dolls etc.

We've spent a few decades now telling girls they can 'do anything a boy can do' but the same effort has not gone into encouraging seeing value in 'feminine activity' for boys. eg, seeing daddy doing housework, having a toy ironing board or pushchair, sharing emotions. If we want to see fewer threads from miserable women with DHs who do not pull their weight we need to change this.

LoveIs I'm not sure your friends actually know what feminism is!

I have a DS (5) and a DD (4). They are both, ostensibly, stereotypically gendered. DS loves planes, space, cars, etc. DD loves pink, Disney princesses, purple, glitter and sparkles. DS is also extremely empathetic, intuitive, kind and considerate. DD is stubborn, determined, cautious and independent.

I haven't particularly persuaded either of them one way or the other (I find the whole Disney thing deeply but while she loves it, I'll support her), but even if I had, I am a tiny, minor influence when you consider everything else at play - pre-school, school, friends, TV, advertising, shops, merchandising displays, grandparents, books, iPad games, the weight of history, society, etc, etc, ad nauseum.

If you think your child is being raised in a bubble, you are deluded.

In some ways, I am grateful that my children conform to the stereotypes, as I suspect it will ease their path in life. It may not, of course, who really knows?

But the problems start when you have a child who doesn't conform to the stereotypes and the expectations, and they're made to feel wrong for doing so.

Most children do conform - or they do when society has finished with them - but there's a sizeable minority that doesn't, and the sooner it's just as acceptable to be those kids, the better.

I'm all for any parent rejoicing in their child's differences, as it paves the way for future children who're perhaps a little left-of-centre to feel more accepted.