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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

to think that conforming to a specific gender

145 replies

DoubtfireDear · 14/08/2014 14:52

isn't a bad thing? Or that "non conforming" isn't something to feel superior about?

DS is a 4 (nearly 5) year old boy. He likes trucks, cars, pirates and spiderman. He runs wild, makes lots of noise, and wears blue/red/green and denim. He likes digging in sand, waving sticks about and being what would be described as a "typical" boy.

He wouldn't let you near him with a pink t-shirt, dolly and pram and is far too fidgety and impatient to do crafty things. He has never been interested in princesses or "typical" girl stuff.

I haven't ever pushed him in a particular direction, I'd never say "you can't have that, it's for girls" it just seems to be built into him.

Sometimes on MN when people talk about having girls who roll about in muck and play with trucks, or boys who like to dress as a disney princess or want to have a dolls house for their birthday, they gush as if it's something to be extra proud of, as if it trumps the "normal" kids.

OP posts:

SputnikSausage · 14/08/2014 16:56

"I just fail to see how veering towards typical gendered behaviour, colour preference, whatever, makes a child any less gifted or special than a child who goes the opposite way, or indeed ends up somewhere in the middle."

But don't you see that there is no such thing as gendered colour or behaviour?! You are attributing this to your son because he is a boy. When my daughters play with trucks I just see them as playing with trucks!

Catsatonic · 14/08/2014 16:58

What SputnikSausage said!

melissa83 · 14/08/2014 16:58

Having worked with 100s of nursery aged children most seem to do a bit of everything and dont bother if its boys or girls.

Parents do though. We had a dad come in saw his ds in heels and a bag and started panicing saying that his ds wasnt gay and neither was he. He said dont think we are gay cause hes dressing like that cause I have actually got a girlfriend. okaaay then

WorraLiberty · 14/08/2014 17:00

FWIW DS went to a lovely nursery, where one of his favourite games was blowdrying and straightening the teachers hair in the hairdressing corner. As far as I know he was never discouraged from doing so, and he is free to pick up my hairdryer or brushes and clips at home if he feels like it- he just doesn't.

Of course he wasn't discouraged, why would he be?

Anyway, hairdressing isn't a 'girls only' thing. There are tons of male hairdressers.

Hercule · 14/08/2014 17:07

When my DDs were little they went with the whole pink frilly princess and dolls thing. Friends did it, relatives encouraged it, TV/shops pushed it. I just went with it to be honest, didn't particularly encourage it but didn't try and stop it either.

Once they got a bit older their natural personalities came out. DD1 at 10 generally wears blue/black, plainer clothes and is generally a bit bolshy, very competitive. DD2 is more laid back, prefers skirts and 'frillier' clothes. Both draw,read, do crafts, cuddle guides pigs as well as play superheroes, cops and robbers, general fighting and rolling around in the garden/ breaking stuff.

I think what I'm saying is don't sweat it too much when they're tiny, they're bound to want to copy their friends and follow the norm. But if you try and give them the right message as they grow up they'll hopefully have the confidence to be themselves.

Original poster

DoubtfireDear · 14/08/2014 17:08

Sorry Sputnik, maybe I am not really making my point very well, I'm not the most articulate at times.

I don't, personally, attribute any sort of behaviour my son has as gendered. I'm saying that other people view certain behaviours and preferences as typical of a certain gender, and if their child just happens not to conform to that, they act as if they have achieved something wonderful, when really their children are just being children.

I was trying to put across that my son would be described in society as a "typical boy" and that it doesn't make a difference to me if he is, or if he starts having preference for "girly" stuff. He's a child, he will choose and drift towards what brings him enjoyment. Some posts on MN come across as smug because their child would prefer what is typically associated with the other gender, when really, it doesn't make a difference. s

OP posts:

plinth · 14/08/2014 17:10

YANBU

I've never yet seen a little boy out and about in a dress.

I file it into the drawer called "only on Mumsnet"

Original poster

DoubtfireDear · 14/08/2014 17:12

I think most of the well known hairdressers are male Worra
but generally (not by me, personally) doing hair is seen as a typically "girly" thing and someone upthread had suggested that DS would be influenced by nursery or grandparents etc. so I was just giving an example of how his nursery didn't really differentiate either.

OP posts:

minipie · 14/08/2014 17:14

I haven't ever pushed him in a particular direction, I'd never say "you can't have that, it's for girls" it just seems to be built into him.

Oh yeah? He buys his own red/green/blue t shirts does he? And his own trucks and spiderman toys?

Come on - we all influence our children to some extent - it is likely that the clothes and toys you have bought your son will have pushed him slightly further towards the "stereotypical" boy. This isn't something to feel particularly bad about, we all do it to some extent, especially as there is so little genuinely gender neutral stuff available. But at least be honest that you have had some influence.

I would guess the reason some parents are proud that their child is not conforming to the gender norms is because it shows their parenting must have been pretty gender neutral (which is something some of us aim for).

MexicanSpringtime · 14/08/2014 17:18

I was a tomboy and my daughter was ultra-feminine, the important thing is to respect them. However there is a lot of pressure from society on children and it cannot be denied. Eg. pink was the colour for boys until around 1930. And some of society's pressure's on children, nowadays, are frankly toxic. As feminism is on the wane, IMHO, girls are under pressure to see themselves as dolls, not human beings.

SputnikSausage · 14/08/2014 17:19

OK, I get you :)

But minipie is right, we all influence our children whether we like it or not, and this happens way earlier than you would think.

There was a really interesting study cited in The Equality Illusion, about gendered behaviours being reinforced as early as six months, when babies were just babies. A year later, they were all exhibiting more typically 'male' or 'female' traits. Really fascinating. I think most of us are aware of this and that's probably why some try to actively kick back against the perceived male/female behaviours.

Original poster

DoubtfireDear · 14/08/2014 17:24

Oh yeah? He buys his own red/green/blue t shirts does he? And his own trucks and spiderman toys?

No, he doesn't buy his own clothes and toys, but he does choose alot of it. As I said upthread, I personally don't like pink, so it's not a colour I would pick anyway.

He likes trucks/cars etc and always has, so obviously I buy more of them. It started because he liked spinning the wheels on the hoover when he was crawling, si I bought him some cars because they have wheels. Nothing to do with them being for boys.

OP posts:

micah · 14/08/2014 17:26

It's a bad thing because it's getting so entrenched in our society. Children are getting picked on for having long/short hair if they're the "wrong" gender, for example.

Even if you say you haven't done anything to make your child how he is, others around him will have. "ooh, aren't you a big strong boy"- anyone heard anyone say the same to a girl, or compliment a boy on looking pretty today? Anyone ever got a comment off a member of the public commenting on their boys boyishness- how they're awful young but much easier as teenagers? How many boys play football? How many do ballet? It's fine to put a girl in ballet classes, but not a boy-why? Have you seen male ballet dancers? They're amazing!

I try to teach my Dc that they can do anything they want to. Anything. They must not let anyone tell them they can't do something because of their gender. If they want to climb trees, fine. If they want to cut/grow their hair, fine. Be a Nurse, be a Doctor.

It starts so early these days- pre-schoolers challenging other children on their behaviour. I've seen adults make girls sit nicely in a restaurant, but allow boys to run riot because they are boys and can't be expected to do the same. Using gender to excuse good/bad behaviours, or blaming a certain behaviour on gender.

"Oh he's a typical …" really boils my piss. What about your non-typical child- does that make them the opposite sex, or transgender? No, it just makes them little boys or girls with their own interests, and to me, that is what should be celebrated….

minipie · 14/08/2014 17:26

It started because he liked spinning the wheels on the hoover when he was crawling, si I bought him some cars because they have wheels. Nothing to do with them being for boys.

Why didn't you buy him a toy hoover though?

See what I mean?

Original poster

DoubtfireDear · 14/08/2014 17:28

Just to clarify, I'm not trying to deny influencing my son at all, of course I have, that's why he enjoys alot of the same things I do (and probably why he doesn't like pink ). And yes, I have bought him superhero toys and nerf guns, there are no doll prams or princess dresses in my house (though no "boy"dressing up stuff either) but I do think that he has access to all sorts of this stuff everywhere and still doesn't choose most of it, therefore is a "typical" boy.

OP posts:

minipie · 14/08/2014 17:29

Original poster

DoubtfireDear · 14/08/2014 17:30

He had a toy hoover at one point mini, it was mine when I was wee

OP posts:

Original poster

DoubtfireDear · 14/08/2014 17:33

Micah your last paragraph is pretty much what I am trying to say, though obviously you have done a better job.

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DeadSirius · 14/08/2014 17:36

YANBU.

I can't say that it's only on mumsnet, but this superiority thing about children liking things typically associated with the opposite gender is tiresome. It's just as bad as not allowing them to play with the "wrong" toys.

Especially baffling is how on Mumsnet, little boys in dresses = good, but grown men in dresses = taking the piss and anti-feminist.

freyaW2014 · 14/08/2014 17:37

minipie why do you prefer gender neutral?

I think things are definitely targeted as 'boys' or 'girls' things/clothes etc. I don't think about it that much, I'm having a baby in December and waited to buy clothes until I knew the sex. Can't wait to buy 'girlie' things now..is this a bad thing?

SolomanDaisy · 14/08/2014 17:38

Surely most small children don't have a strong bias in favour of acting like either gender role? They're a mix of different likes and dislikes. My DS likes trains, cars, football, mud. He also likes craft, reading, playing with baby dolls and Barbie. That's what most children are like, if you don't force them down one path. He goes to a montessori preschool where the toys don't have any inherent gender bias and the kids select their activities and we try to steer away from gender stereotypes. He's not wearing a dress every day, but he isn't constantly conforming to 'boy' either. I'm going to be cross the first time some apparently naturally pink hating boy suggests to him that something he likes is for girls.

SputnikSausage · 14/08/2014 17:43

"I don't think about it that much"

Most people don't. But all these little things (no matter how ridiculous seeming) add up and the result is our daughters don't become scientists and our sons are socialised to use aggression to solve disputes. I know that sounds extreme but you actually don't have to look far to see this in action.

minipie · 14/08/2014 17:49

freya I would like to bring my child up relatively gender neutral because I think that's what gives them more of a genuinely free choice according to their own personality. If I always dress DD in very girly clothes, and give her girly toys, and she then becomes "into" very girly things, that's not her own choice - that's my previous choices shaping her choices. I'd prefer to give her a range of clothes and toys and then she's in a better position to make a freer choice of her own later.

Of course clothes and toys don't matter so much but I very much suspect there is a link between always having girly clothes and toys and going on in future to choose "female" school subjects and jobs - and I would much rather my DD felt free to choose any subject and job according to her abilities, not her gender.

I say relatively gender neutral because 1) it's impossible to have a truly gender neutral upbringing, there are so many gender-biased influences on children that are unavoidable and 2) there are limits - eg I'm not going to be buying dresses for a boy (should I have one).

That said, I don't think it really matters what you dress a tiny baby in!

Original poster

DoubtfireDear · 14/08/2014 17:53

SolomanDaisy

I have no idea what a montessori preschool is, but i really hope your snarky final comment about "apparently naturally pink hating boy" is not a suggestion that because my son doesn't like pink, that he would make fun of another child who does. I'm bringing him up to be kind to his peers, his colour preference (however it has been influenced) doesn't stop him from doing that.

OP posts:

micah · 14/08/2014 17:53

Solomandaisy. I was furious the first time my DD was asked why she was dressed like a girl, when she was a boy. The reason? She had a pixie crop haircut, her choice.

I was more furious after I posted on an internet forum about it after she was challenged in a swimming pool and was told I should just grow her hair, then she wouldn't get picked on.

WTAF?

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