to think that conforming to a specific gender

[DoubtfireDear]

isn't a bad thing? Or that "non conforming" isn't something to feel superior about?

DS is a 4 (nearly 5) year old boy. He likes trucks, cars, pirates and spiderman. He runs wild, makes lots of noise, and wears blue/red/green and denim. He likes digging in sand, waving sticks about and being what would be described as a "typical" boy.

He wouldn't let you near him with a pink t-shirt, dolly and pram and is far too fidgety and impatient to do crafty things. He has never been interested in princesses or "typical" girl stuff.

I haven't ever pushed him in a particular direction, I'd never say "you can't have that, it's for girls" it just seems to be built into him.

Sometimes on MN when people talk about having girls who roll about in muck and play with trucks, or boys who like to dress as a disney princess or want to have a dolls house for their birthday, they gush as if it's something to be extra proud of, as if it trumps the "normal" kids.

I absolutely would let my dd choose out of both sections and indeed had a couple of outfits that were from the boy section when she was a baby just because I liked it and plenty of different colours in her wardrobe. DH's favourite colour on her was a carky colour. She is 10 now and is more of a girly girl in the way she dresses but her favourite colour is blue.

DS1 is 6 and has MLD. He loves dressing up in princess dresses, playing with dolls and yellow is his favourite colour. DS2 (2) has his pick of both sets of gendered toys and always favours balls and cars.

I am with the poster who says that those who say that girls shouldn't wear pink or play with dolls and boys shouldn't want to play football are just as damaging as them who are saying blue for boys, pink for girls.

What plinth said.

"If parents back off and let them choose, Disney, Mattel, Barbie and Nerf will step in. As will 'helpful' relatives, friends, school, the Church, the whole weight of society. My finger on the other side of the scale won't stopp DD having gendered shite shoved down her neck but I can teach her to think about it. "

Beautifully put.

The stereotyping is worse now than it was post war, I think. Because the marketeers can sell more clothes/toys/equipment when gendering prevents hand-me-downs. I think the role of cynical big companies and how they use their public manipulation advertising budgets to maximise their profit is often overlooked as a formative influence.

But he wouldn't necessarily be saying it to be unkind, would he doubtfire? He could just ask because children are curious. And then the way you have brought your child up begins to affect my child and that is how gender stereotyping is reinforced across society. Montessori isn't an unusual form of preschool, I am surprised you haven't heard of it.

I have no idea why he wouldn't let me near him with a pink t shirt, he just wouldn't.

Have you ever bought him pink clothes? Or given him them to wear? Does his dad wear pink t-shirts? Does he know he's a boy? Does he notice that other boys at nursery/school don't wear pink? Do you accept that any of these things might possibly influence his choices?

I like pink enough to put both DS (2.5) and DD (3 months) in it but not enough for DD's wardrobe to consist entirely of it (so she is wearing 99% hand me downs). He has two pink t-shirts among his extensive wardrobe, and if I give him two to choose from in the morning and one is pink, he is probably equally likely to choose the pink one as the other one. It's just a colour to him, he only just knows the names of colours though and he does know pink. If he starts refusing to wear pink, it's not because he has an ingrained idea that pink is wrong for boys

He refused a drink in a pink cup at an older friend's house and her husband, lovely man but fairly traditional, said "ah, he's such a boy!". Unfortunately like is slightly more difficult for us than that, would that he would take a drink from every non-pink cup and only reject the pink ones. In fact he has a very limited set of cup shapes he will accept, and colour is irrelevant.

(And neither of them will be wearing dress up clothes to school except on dress up days).

What do you mean, "the way I have brought my child up"?

I have never once told my son that something is for girls, so I doubt that he would suggest it at all. Just because he doesn't have a preference for barbies doesn't mean that I have drummed that preference into him and told him he can't like it because it is for girls. He's just never shown an interest in it, just as he has never shown an interest in football or riding a bike.

This is what my point is, you seem to be making out that it's bad that my son doesn't like "girls" things and that it is a reflection of my parenting.

at

True story-my now nearly 11 year old was dressed in girlie clothes from the start, all pinks and lilacs etc. At 3 she decided she liked Spider-Man, wanted to be a boy and insisted I call her diago (from Dora the explorer) she also had a strong man outfit. She went to nursery with a Spider-man lunchbox, Spider-Man trainers etc for a while. By 5 she had grown out of that phase and started wearing nail varnish etc. I definitely didn't particularly like this phase (sorry) but did support it. My point is-despite what she was surrounded by she chose her own path regardless!
Perhaps we worry too much?

Have you ever bought him pink clothes? Or given him them to wear? Does his dad wear pink t-shirts? Does he know he's a boy? Does he notice that other boys at nursery/school don't wear pink? Do you accept that any of these things might possibly influence his choices?

No, I have never bought him pink clothes, as I have said several times upthread, I dislike pink, I have never bought myself pink clothes, or indeed chosen pink for friends eho have had little girls. One of his male friends at nursery wears a fair bit of pink, as do most of the girls, DS has never commented on it.

And I wouldn't know what colour T-shirts his dad wears, having had no contact with him since the night DS was conceived.

Folk keep referring to "posters who say that girls shouldn't wear pink or play with dolls and boys shouldn't want to play football".

Who has said that? Ever?

One of his male friends at nursery wears a fair bit of pink, as do most of the girls, DS has never commented on it.

Well, he's seen lots of girls in pink and few boys in pink. He knows he's a boy, right? So he knows that most boys don't wear pink and most girls.

Also, if you don't like pink and don't dress him in it, I'm struggling to see why you are trying to go near him with a pink t-shirt?

I think there is a danger in labelling them "typical boy" and "typical girl", even in your head, because you can subconsciously limit what you subsequently expose them to - which clothes you buy, which films you take them to, which books you choose at the library - and push them further into the stereotype than they may naturally be. It also makes me wonder what you're labelling the other children as - "atypical boy"? "strange boy"? "sissy"?

I wish people would look at the children and not the gender. "Amelia likes dolls" - fine, great, have fun with it. "Amelia likes dolls, she's such a girl" - not so fine. What does that make Jane who prefers cars, a boy? And do you then sign Amelia up for ballet and not give her the chance to try football?

So yes I am a bit pleased if my children do some things against the stereotype, because it reassures me that I haven't accidentally restricted their choices. I don't like pink, I never bought DS or DD pink as babies. Perhaps it's out of rarity value that DS now chooses pink when he's offered a choice. I am pleased that he's got the independence of mind to continue choosing pink a year into school despite friends telling him it's for girls. Good for him.

What also needs to be considered is how is makes the boy who doesn't like Spiderman or red clothes feel when he hears an adult saying that boys who do like those things are "typical".

My dream is to see a children's section that is not split into boys/girls clothes, where you can get items in many colours and styles and it is up to you as the parent, or the child themselves, to decide what you want.

^This.

My 11 YO DD wants to look like a boy, hasn't worn a skirt for seven years and rejects anything with a hint of pink. She is just as restricted in her choices as if she limited her choices to everything pink and sparkly. I wish we could just have clothes and toys for children. Nothing needs to be identified for one gender or the other until puberty starts to dictate the shape of some items of clothing.

he knows that most boys don't wear pink and most girls do

I don't think he's made that connection to be honest- as I said he has never commented on it, nor have I. In any case, what other people choose to dress their children in isn't at my discretion so has nothing to do with how I've brought him up.

I haven't bought him anything pink, someone bought him a pink shirt once and he doesn't like wearing it, he also wont drink out of the yellow cup at home, or wear the yellow hat i bought him, so it's not just pink, I mentioned pink because it's the one that is generally seen as unusual for boys to wear (I couldn't care less, but in general society) and I was trying to make a point.

As it stands, this thread has turned into a bit of a criticism of what my son likes and dislikes, and how this is obviously down to me stereotyping him, rather than anyone actually discussing the point i made in the OP, so I think I'll bow out soon.

I think you have influenced your DS a lot more than you think in this respect - you've never bought him anything 'girly', either clothes or toys, and it's what he has at home which will influence him the most. DD has a train set (2 train-loving GPs and a train-loving dad, I'm not averse to a steam train myself), rocket, space buggy, that kind of thing, along with dolls etc, and what we have noticed is that she doesn't go for inanimate objects, so, as she can't put people on the trains in her train set, she's not that bothered by it. Little figures are her thing, today she was wittering away to Cinderella and Spiderman in the trolley, for half an hour.

I'm not criticising you, btw, I'm merely disputing your claim that you haven't pushed him in a particular direction, - I think you have. It doesn't really matter.

I still don't think I have Tam, apart from the cars (which I believe to be fairly neutral anyway) most of his toys were things like a school which had various musical buttons, a kitchen which belonged to me, instruments. When out and about he would always get most excited by toy cars than anything else and it snowballed from there. I'm not saying I've had no influence at all, but I have been led by what he has always shown an interest in.

Besides that, supposing I have heavily influenced him, and that has resulted in him liking blue stuff, cars etc. I still don't see how that makes him inferior to the boys that do go for dolls houses or carrying a little handbag to the shops.

My point was, really that some parents whose children go for the opposite of what is generally associated with their own gender, speak as if it makes their children and their parenting superior to those who "conform". Just because my son likes what are generally known as "boys' toys" doesn't render him any less intelligent or creative than a boy who'd rather push a pram around.

Op for what it's worth I'm with you on all this.

Also I don't think I've ever chosen my kids toys myself, she's always told me what she likes! Do people really pick their kids toys?

Your opening point, OP, was that people think they are superior for having children who don't conform to gender stereotypes. Many people have responded to that exact point. I, and others, think you are wrong in supposing that anyone thinks these children are in any way superior. Posters have also branched out into a discussion of gender stereotyping in children in general, which is entirely relevant.

Just because my son likes what are generally known as "boys' toys" doesn't render him any less intelligent or creative than a boy who'd rather push a pram around.

Please show me a post where anyone has said this. The same as the point I made upthread in response to those who say that girls shouldn't wear pink or play with dolls and boys shouldn't want to play football are just as damaging as them who are saying blue for boys, pink for girls

No-one has said either of those things.

OP, genderising children isn't just about what you HAVE done or said, it's as much about what you HAVEN'T done or said. You HAVEN'T bought him non/
-gender-stereotypical clothing and toys, so now he does like gender-stereotypical stuff.

Gender is NOT innate. I know it's hard for people to grasp because it permeates every aspect of society, and what we do recognise is just the tip of the iceberg, but it is a hierarchically agenda-driven social construct. None of it has any basis in biology or nature. Children are exposed to genderisation from everything and everyone they encounter from the second they are born (in fact, when they are still in the womb, thanks to modern scans - people learn they're having a boy, and suddenly the kicks are all "footballer" ones, etc.). Think of it like language; if all a child hears is English (or has v neglible encounters with other languages, or maybe other languages are portrayed as 'not for them'), once they can speak English and are still learning it, they're not going to be wholly positive if you occasionally and randomly insist they speak a bit of Finnish, or whatever.

People often bring up how boys like vehicles when young and some girls don't as 'proof' of some sort of innate gender. This actually has nithing to do with gender. What is actually going on is that all children, right from very early ages, have 'schemas' (google it, if you're interested, is too long to fully explain here), which is essentially what sort of things appeal to them at whatever stage for whatever reason. Due to a very slight and temporary difference in eyesight development, boys are more likely to development a movement or trajectory schema at a very young age, ie liking vehicles, wheels and so on, which adults leap on as 'proof' that they are 'typical' boys. They continue to buy these sorts of toys and encourage play with then, and then the apparent 'innate' gender choice becomes a self-fulfilling gender conformity. Children have all sorts of schemas, and the ones that conform to gender are generally encouraged, like that one, or when girls have 'envelopment' schemas, which involves wrapping, swaddling, and cuddling and so on (playing with dolls and cuddly toys is typical of this), and the non-gender-stereotypical ones are ignored. Thus parents tell themselves false stories about their child's gender conformity based on wholly subjective and biased beliefs and assumptions and call it truth.

freya Did you buy your DC no toys at all till they were old enough to go to the shop and tell you what to buy?
Has no other family member bought them toys?
If that's true, you must have had an admirably empty house for the first couple of years of parenthood.

No I think it's fine. Gender is one of the ways we understand the world so it's only to be expected that most kids get an understanding of how it all works at an early age, and if their behaviour is within what's expected of their gender, that's hardly surprising or bad even if it's completely to do with conditioning and expectations (and I bloody bet it has tons to do with brain development too).
OTOH it used to be well frowned on when I was little, and as a slightly transgendered type I did find that quite hard. It's nice to think the pendulum has swung so far the other way that it's almost something to be proud of.

Annie the first quote you took from me, wasn't meant to imply that someone on here has said those things, I was repeating what I said in my OP, that I have seen, many times on MN, posters who convey that opinion. I've not come across it on this thread.

The second quote isn't something I've said, or something that I agree with.

Oxford, I understand what you're saying, but my son did have many neutral toys when he was very young, as well as "boy" things like a few cars, he also had a doll pram and a kitchen.

If he had shown a great deal of interest in my sister's old pram, I'd have gotten him a bigger one when he was older, if he'd shown an interest in the school and role playing eith the little figures, I'd have expanded on that and got him a dolls house. As it stands, his favourite thing was the cars and rolling them down a plank of wood propped against the couch, so I took his lead and bought him a garage with a ramp. It snowballed from there. Maybe I'm missing your point a bit, and I eill google schema and hopefully understand a little better, but I don't see how not bothering toexpand and buy him more things he has little interest in is influencing him. He also had access to all types of toy at nursery as well as at home and still didn't show an interest.

I'm really not bothered about gender conformity or non conformity at all, I genuinely couldn't care less if DS turned round tomorrow and asked me for a set of fairy wings or wanted to wear my hair clips, it just doesn't matter to me, and that was my point, it seems to matter so much to some parents to push their children in the opposite direction, and they think they have achieved something wonderful by doing so, rather than just letting them be.

If I have inadvertently influenced my son towards his 'boyish" things, fair enough but it doesn't make him any less of a child, or me any less of a parent if you see what I mean.

drspouse baby toys are pretty similar aren't they? Building blocks, books etc! Even small kids show preferences though,it's just what they play with! I seem to remember my dd had soft dolls and cars etc as a toddler god knows where most of it came from!

I think some of gender is innate. Maybe lots of it is social conditioning but there is definitely some part that is down to being male or female IMO.

My ds (5) has gravitated naturally towards battles, guns and swords. With zero encouragement. He's picked up sticks and used them as weapons since he was 3. No exposure to any violence. He doesn't use them as real weapons to hurt people, just makes weapon type noises and tries to fight the imaginary bad guys. I've lost count of the little boys I've seen waking around parks, holding sticks and demonstrating similar behaviour. Never seen a girl do it.

He's very physical, car was his first word and he was obsessed with movement and wheels right from the word go.
I've never stopped him having any toys - "typically" female or male and he has had plenty of both. However there is no doubt the "boy" toys have had more play.