to think that conforming to a specific gender

[DoubtfireDear]

isn't a bad thing? Or that "non conforming" isn't something to feel superior about?

DS is a 4 (nearly 5) year old boy. He likes trucks, cars, pirates and spiderman. He runs wild, makes lots of noise, and wears blue/red/green and denim. He likes digging in sand, waving sticks about and being what would be described as a "typical" boy.

He wouldn't let you near him with a pink t-shirt, dolly and pram and is far too fidgety and impatient to do crafty things. He has never been interested in princesses or "typical" girl stuff.

I haven't ever pushed him in a particular direction, I'd never say "you can't have that, it's for girls" it just seems to be built into him.

Sometimes on MN when people talk about having girls who roll about in muck and play with trucks, or boys who like to dress as a disney princess or want to have a dolls house for their birthday, they gush as if it's something to be extra proud of, as if it trumps the "normal" kids.

I have. More than once. I do live in a very right-on, liberal, hippy enclave.

I do genuinely find those who are vehemently anti gender stereotypes to be just as close-minded and damaging (and quite frankly dull) as the pink for girls, blue for boys brigade.

I agree

Also, I get the impression some kids are getting just as much pressure from their parents not to conform, as some kids are getting from their parents/society to conform.

Just back off and let them choose for themselves.

I'll stick my neck out, and admit that if my son asked me for a dress, I would say no and if asked why, respond that dresses are for girls.

Which they are.

A large proportion of the world will provide on-tap (and generally un-noticed) positive feedback for what's considered gender appropriate behaviour (e.g., a boy who's into football will generally have an easier time at school than a boy who's into nail varnish).

Perhaps it takes more explicit effort to make dress-wearing a positive thing for a boy. Perhaps that's why MN is a refuge for endorsing it?

And let's not forget where this gendering ends: that's why it matters.

I don't give a shiny shit if a young woman identifies herself as a girly girl, I very much do care if that means she thinks she can't cope with maths or science or engineering.

I equally don't give a shit if my ds grows up into a rufty-tufty tractor driving man, but I do care very much if he also feels unable to express his emotions or care for his own child because that's woman's work.

If parents back off and let them choose, Disney, Mattel, Barbie and Nerf will step in. As will 'helpful' relatives, friends, school, the Church, the whole weight of society. My finger on the other side of the scale won't stopp DD having gendered shite shoved down her neck but I can teach her to think about it.

FWIW things like My Little Pony have changed my thoughts a tad. Even Barbie was swimming through fire last night in a movie donated my DD's older cousin.

I'm not bothered about pink, I'm bothered about Pink = Girl = Weak.

YY mrsterry - all that. I am that people think children are making choices in a vacuum. I'm not doing that as a sentient adult who cares about these things. What chance does a small child have?

MrsT helping them to think about it is one thing (a great thing) but by 'back off and let them choose', I mean don't put pressure on them to be a certain way.

Pink has long time been accepted into male fashion.
But its a big difference between pink clothes for boys and for girls.

I agree OP. And i have seen many a poster pleased with themselves because they never buy their daughter anything pink or a dress but surely that is discriminatory to those things. So in fact you aren't letting them choose at all as the pink shoes were never an option.

But summer - I could just as easily say that choosing between the pretty pink t-shirt and the lilac one with the picture of fluffy kittens isn't letting them chose at all as the blue one was never an option.

I'm not saying posters never seem a wee bit pleased with themselves on here about this issue. But then that's being a bit unfair of me probably - why shouldn't a poster be pleased at managing to control just one choice against the maelstrom of marketing messages, societal messages etc that mrsT mentions above, every single day...

Summerblaze - presumably you encouraged your DD also choose from the boys' section or your DS from the girls' section as well as "their own" sections, if you're concerned about children's choices being limited?

My DD1 once refused to wear a pair of Gruffalo wellies I had bought her. She loved them and was so excited when I took them out of the bag. Then she saw the "For Boys" label that Sainsbury's had so helpfully attached, burst into tears and would never wear them. And this is the child of a vocal feminist who teaches her children that nothing should ever be limited to one gender or the other.

MrsTerry P has it exactly correct.
Quite succinct and articulates it perfectly.

So how hard do I have to push on my side of the lever? Very very hard

Surely you realise that, even if you haven't influenced him against pink, he has been influenced against it, and specifically because it is for 'girls'. You can't believe a reaction to a specific colour is innate?

Maybe not colour preference, charity, but there seem to be strong innate factors in toy preference.

link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-008-9430-1

Right but seriously how common is it that children are given a full selection of toys and allowed to play with whatever they want without various adults making stupid sexist comments. Children want to please their caregivers and so the socialisation begins.

Fwiw my dd loves playing with cars. Everyone else is in a paddy. It drives me nuts.

My 6 yr old DS is currently enjoying himself at a science museum wearing a pair of gorgeous pink shorts (made for boys!). I don't get what the issue is.

He (and his younger brother) both got exposed to all the enforced gender stereotypes at pre school and from other parents and we just gently challenge them. They need to be challenged because girls get the rough end of the stick with all this and I want my sons growing up to respect women and accepting they are just as capable of doing any job they want. I don't want my boys having a weird skewed view of girls as seen through the marketing campaigns they're endlessly exposed to!

Allotment I wish there were more parents like you. I really do.

A colleague of mine has a young girl who she won't allow to wear trousers saying 'little girls should be in skirts or dresses, not boys' trousers'. She also has a bow or band in her hair at all times.
I don't think this is right. But it doesn't make me dull and close minded!
I think all toys/colours/clothes should be offered and decisions left up to the child, and if you have a parent interfering or pushing in any direction this could be somewhat damaging. As long as the child is happy I don't suppose it matters what it's wearing or playing with.

Regardless of what they like they are ALL normal.

I don't understand why not wanting a pink shirt means he likes boy things. My DD doesn't like pink shirts either - does that mean she's a boy? Or a child who doesn't like pink? Why is pink gendered to you, OP?

I'll be honest, I have never chosen anything pink for my son, so his aversion to it could well be down to me (a girl!) and my dislike for the colour. I can honestly say now, that he is older and making his own choices, I would never dismiss any of his choices because they were pink or deemed typically feminine.

FWIW DS went to a lovely nursery, where one of his favourite games was blowdrying and straightening the teachers hair in the hairdressing corner. As far as I know he was never discouraged from doing so, and he is free to pick up my hairdryer or brushes and clips at home if he feels like it- he just doesn't. He has also asked me to paint his nails, I said no to that, but didn't tell him it was only for girls, I told him it was for adults and I didn't want him getting paint in his mouth.

We are probably a little sheltered, we live in a very small community, so haven't come across any boys in dresses at school or whatever so maybe I'm missing the bigger picture a bit. I am quite open minded, I don't actively try to influemce him either way, though I accept that influence comes from other sources, not just me. I just fail to see how veering towards typical gendered behaviour, colour preference, whatever, makes a child any less gifted or special than a child who goes the opposite way, or indeed ends up somewhere in the middle.

at

I'm not bothered about pink, I'm bothered about Pink = Girl = Weak.

^^This. More than anything else. Femininity is seen as as negative so often, even for women. How often have women in traditionally male dominated areas had to employ 'masculine' traits just to get ahead? As a PP said - Why can't a 'girly' girl also be intelligent?

I'm definitely not a 'girly' girl, but I don't consider myself a tomboy either. I dress my 1 yr old daughter in all colours and styles that I can find, including pink, however I am angry when most choices include pink of some sort - why must she be limited? Actually, its very similar in the boys section (but with 'male' colours). My dream is to see a children's section that is not split into boys/girls clothes, where you can get items in many colours and styles and it is up to you as the parent, or the child themselves, to decide what you want.

Pink isn't really gendered to me, Sputnik, I'm just trying to make the point that it is stereotypically "for girls" and that some people seem to think boys choosing it is some sort of achievement and benchmark of better parenting, when really, it's just a colour.

I bought my dd a train set for her second birthday, she had no interest in it at all. Ds knew anything with wheels on was amazing from day 1. They are 15 months apart and have lots of different toys around and play together but they just know wage they want!!