To refuse to un-recline dd's plane seat...

[MerryMarigold]

Dh reckons I am. I reckon I am not.

So, long haul flight. Up at 3am to get to airport. 2 flights, 4 hour transit, bit of a hideous trip.

Anyways, on second flight, dd aged 5 FINALLY falls asleep. Thank God. Recline her seat so she is more comfortable and will hopefully sleep longer. 5 minutes later lady behind pokes my arm and asks me to put the chair up. Not very politely. I tell her my dd is asleep. She says she can't open her table with the chair reclined. (I have done this many times, so know it is entirely possible). I kneel on my chair and help her open table. Says she can't see TV screen. I adjust TV screen angle for her. She then proceeds to kick Dd's chair several times, whilst I get annoyed but decide to ignore.

10 mins later drinks come round and she speaks to the air steward in local language. He says to me. "Can I raise the seat?" and I tell him dd is sleeping. He says, "I'll do it gently" and just leans over me and does it. Thankfully she didn't wake up and managed to sleep in a contorted way for a lot longer.

I am usually the sort of person who doesn't stick up for myself and who doesn't like putting other people out (I didn't recline my own chair for the entire 9 hour flight as her large dh was behind me). I was very tired, I think that's why I was a bit arsey. I am also not being PFB. I have 3 children, but the others were not as tired and were fine.

Dh said it was her 'right' to have the seat up at least until the food is cleared up (this is probably at least 3 hours into the flight as it's a long flight). I said, "Says who?" Does her right to eat more comfortably trump my dd's right to sleep more comfortably?

So who is right?

koala I can't recall a single post that hasn't stated categorically that seats should be upright for meal times.

As I have already said, that's not why I linked to the article.

It was in response to posts like this:

I'm also interested in where these seats are that recline so far back that they...involve manoeuvring forks around the headrest to get from plate to mouth. I've never been on a plane seat that reclines that far back! from Thumbwitch

But I think you know that.

Seriously, you novice fliers are doing nothing to further your cause.

Hahaha! Oh, my. This is just obvious goadery-fuckery at this point.

Goodnight, ladies.

I fly short haul most often and never recline my seat. I'm 5'10 with long legs and it's a pain in the ass as well as uncomfortable when people recline back in front of me. Usually I won't say anything but it must be equally uncomfortable for the person reclining when my every move interferes with their seat. So usually they sit back up.

I'm with your Dh in this instance.

Come on, though...!

Expecting people to fly super long haul, fully upright, even when the seats are designed to recline?!

And thinking the answer is relentless, passive aggressive seat-kicking...?

What is that, if not pure goadery-fuckery?!

Thank you Merry for letting me know what 'window seat guy' was doing, if I was sitting in his place I would probably have done the same thing or engrossed myself in my book or the view out of the window. Unless I thought a particular party was being particularly UR. He either thought you both were UR or you both were being a couple of wimmin having the sort of PA bitchfest that unfortunately gals worldwide do (just read this thread!). I always think if you're tired enough you fall asleep, as he did (and dd), reclined or unreclined. I wouldn't have thought he was specifically scared of the lady, maybe he was even demonstrating to you how easy it is sleep unreclined. Now there's a thought.

So next question - what was kick-seat lady's DH doing? .

I'm not sure how you managed to read sarcasm into my post that you keep quoting, Koala. It was a statement of fact - I have never been on a plane where seats recline that far back. Now I know that there are other planes where it does happen, so there you go.

No need to get all PA about someone else's personal experience.

The linked Independent Traveller guidelines seem reasonable to me.

I don't ever kick seat backs but I have long legs so the person in front might feel my kneecaps. No passenger or purser will persuade me to make my legs any shorter. Legroom in economy is not generous. I always get an aisle seat so I can move them around while the aisle is free.

is your inside leg longer than 35-36 inches? That's my 6 foot 6 husband's leg length, and he has no trouble with knee caps on seat backs. Perhaps you're flying the wrong airlines which are too stingy on legroom. Seat Furu will give you all the exact details on legroom and seat pitch etc, per airline, per aircraft, per configuration of aircraft. Leg room does vary a lot with LH airlines. It was American Airlines or United Airlines that I thought had terribly stingy legroom on their LH flights. My connecting short haul domestic US flights were about the same legroom as the plane I flew 11 hours on over the Atlantic on. Have you flown for instance Singapore Airlines, Cathay Pacific, Emirates, Etihad, Gulf Air, Thai, China Airlines, Malaysia Airlines? They all have excellent legroom in lh economy, and competitive prices. I'm not a big fan of European or north American airlines, but I don't actually know how their legroom varies with my preferred airlines, just that one flight I had zero legroom.

Sound systems - wireless headphones exist, music should never be anyone else's problem, but it was a good analogy

It wasn't a good analogy. It was skewed one. There are laws for how hard music can be. The person with the sound system can still use it. What the self-entitled in this thread want is the non-use of the paid-for-entitled-to-use recline. It would only have been a good analogy if the music person had said the only way to keep neighbors happy and be a good neighbour is never to have music or tv on (without headphones). Because then she would be taking the same stance with her possible noise annoyance, i.e. eliminating it by never having it on, as she does with the seat issue on planes, i.e. never reclining.

I am still boggling at the idea that cabin crew will take pity on a nutter relentlessly kicking the recliner in front of them, and move them into anything other than a straight-jacket ...!

they won't, believe me. They'll spit in their gin and tonic and deliver said g&t with a beautiful smile and an ultra-polite "anything else I can get you ma'am". Moral of that story... don't fuck with cabin crew, they hold all the cards, lol. They might look nice, but they are not the dumb, submissive idiots many of the self-entitled take them to be.

I have been on a plane that got diverted and made an unplanned landing to offload a nutter. Men with guns (police, army, border security, no idea really) boarded the plane and escorted the passenger off, not so nicely. Passengers slow-clapped and booed the idiot passenger. I was told by the purser that as well as possible criminal charges, he would be liable for the extra costs incurred by the airline. And that would be no small amount. The passengers gave the crew a kind of standing ovation/round of applause after it was over.

I think there should be a little light-up sign, like the seatbelt sign
"You may now recline if you wish"

It would go on after the food is cleared away, and probably not at all on short, daytime fights

I think it would reduce the angst, everyone would know what was expected of them

I'll grant you that the music analogy wasn't good, but the point I was trying to make is that just because you can do something it doesn't mean you should.

I think the problem with seat reclining is that either you are pissed off and miserable for a journey because you don't want to upset the person behind you by reclining your seat, or the person behind you is pissed off because you have reclined your seat. Either way, someone is pissed off.

There is no right or wrong. You have paid for a seat that reclines, but you have also paid for the space in front of you. When the person in front of you reclines their seat they are using a facility that they have paid for, but they are using the space that you have paid for.

I personally have never reclined, it just does't occur to me to do so. DH has never reclined either and he is 6'4". I am mildly pissed off when the person in front reclines but I just suck it up because its only for so many hours. The flight will end, I'm only going to be there for so long.

I'm replying to the sarcastic 'Where are all these economy seats that go so far back they impede your ability to eat lololol' posters.

semantics koala of course when space is restricted in ANY way actions are impeded. The remarks about seats reclining so far back that they were like flat beds that a person couldn't drink or eat when a seat was reclined was refuted by many who don't notice the impedement. Even when a seat is reclined, I can still eat, so can my very tall husband, but yes of course it is more impeded than it would be with the seat in upright. Which is why every airline has the seat in upright rule for meal times.

My sarcasm over FlatBedsInEconomyAirlines is no greater or no lesser than your sarcasm with this post. We all know space gets impeded with restrictions, we don't need telling that. There is less space restriction in business class, therefor less restrictions with eating. That's a given. The point was. Reclined seats were made out to be flat-bed-pod like, they're not, as you very well know, it's a few cm at most. Some of us don't even notice when the seat in front of us is reclined. That's how tiny a recline is.

I find this whole post so moot, but so hilarious too. As it's so pointless unless the people on the other side of the fence are actually prepared to do something about it, like petitioning airlines to do away with recline. But no, they just like to rant and seethe on Mumsnet, and think up passive aggressive seat-kicking tactics for their next flights. It's so sad really, I shouldn't laugh. But I can't help it.

I do think a lot of this passion must be rooted in.... longhaul airline travel simply isn't special anymore. The days where it was the preserve of the elite are LONG gone. I think people feel frustrated because they have saved up for a year for that flight for their holiday in Los Angeles, and they want that special spacious feeling that you see on old Wickers World reruns. They don't want the packed in like sardines in a tin reality. They don't want to face the un-specialness of it all. So maybe by forcing the person in front of them not to recline they get that wee bit of specialness back.

There is no right or wrong. You have paid for a seat that reclines, but you have also paid for the space in front of you. When the person in front of you reclines their seat they are using a facility that they have paid for, but they are using the space that you have paid for

I think you might be viewing this slightly wrongly. Say a seat pitch/recline is 5cm. Say the space between upright seats is 80cm. You do pay for a recline-able seat. yes. Everyone on the flight does (except those crappy ones in the back row). You do also pay for your share of the space in front of you. But that space isn't the 80cm, it's the 80cm minus the 5cm recline. So technically, you pay for 80cm face-space during take off and landing and meal times, and a guaranteed 75cm during the rest of the flight. Though you could just luck out and get 80cm face-space for the whole flight if the passenger in front doesn't recline, or the seat is free, or you are in an exit-row, or you're in bulkhead (the last 2 you should have I imagine a good 120cm face-space).

And I am sorry but there is a right and a wrong. It's called airline policy. Just like there is a right and wrong with music systems and how loud they can be played. You people who don't like recline should complain to the airlines, not put the onus on your fellow passengers for doing what they're allowed to do. In the same way you wouldn't go to a neighbour and say they must always wear headphones for listening to the telly or music. If you have noise issues, there are guidelines every council can enforce, if the neighbours have normal noise habits, then you learn to live with it, or you petition the council for "silence zones" or whatever, what you don't do is seethe and be a passive-aggressive-polly on Mumsnet that telly and music should only be listened to with earphones because you have ninja hearing and non-headphone using music/telly listeners are selfish bastards. Well everyone can seethe on Mumsnet, it's allowed, it's just silly, and will get them no where.

(that's the collective you by the way, not you in particular, just the anti-reclining-brigade)

Surely this is a simple case of whether you prioritise your own (or your child's) comfort over someone else's? If you recline, you think yours is more important. If you don't, you don't?

you can flip that on it's head and say -

Surely this is a simple case of whether you prioritise your own comfort over someone else's? If you think the person in front of you should not recline to aid or accomodate you, you think yours is more important. If you don't, you don't?

That would only be true if, on boarding, the person behind immediately announced to a potential recliner in front that they wouldn't tolerate any reclining... Or asked someone to unrecline as soon as they did. Most people wouldn't do either IMO.

I, certainly, would assume someone who simply reclined wouldn't suddenly unrecline on being asked... I'd assume that, (if they were that type of person) they'd have asked before reclining if it was ok.

I have to say, I expect people in front if me to recline(and very rarely do myself). But I'm 6ft 1 and if people recline, they will get my knees in their back when I move... I can't help it.

If it was that much of an issue during meal times they'd do an announcement, like for landing, for you return your seat to the upright position. Your chair reclines, recline it. If she doesn't like it then tough! She should have paid for first/business class. My husband is super tall and when travelling with his 6"4 friend they flew first class, because if someone in front wanted to recline, their knees would have buckled. They made the right decision. YANBU. I'd also elbow my husband in the face for not being agreeable

I think long haul has vastly improved.
I remember in the days there was only one overhead movie shown how people would get up and down, felt they needed to stretch their legs several times a journey, get luggage from overhead lockers, stand in the aisles loudly chatting so it was really hard to sleep.

Hurray, now everyone sits still either on their own consoles or browsing the seat back movies. Also meals are a quick hand out and back so everyone can get on with what they're doing, they used to be prolonged drinks/ repeat cuppa sessions. V annoying.

Dozie, the days of 1 screen overhead movies and real life emergency demonstrations... I've always loved air travel, the sheer power and miracle of getting up into the air and flying. It's amazing! Recline/ non recline has never been an issue in 40 years of long haul flights, although admittedly not done much for the past 10. Woman on plane and then this thread have been eye opening to me.

me too dozie, on the whole lh is much better than it was (well maybe not in Alan Wicker's day, lol) but better than 20 yrs ago. ICE has been a godsend. Non-smoking a delight (for most). Seats I think have become more comfortable, better padding, adjustable in height headrests etc, foot supports. I even enjoy most airline (lh) food. OK, not Heston B standards, but it amazes me how good it is under such tough circumstances.

The Airbus a380 upperdeck is out of this world, and something I could never have dreamed of. I am not rich so can't fly biz class often, but had enough miles to upgrade on 2 a380 flights. Flat beds for all, a cocktail bar at the back you can actually sit at with others to socialise with a drink or snacks. Every single seat is it's own little suite-like thing, all seats with aisle access, all with a little personal fridge/minibar filled with whatever you like, tv/nintendo/phone, even a little cupboard like thing to stores shoes and bags laptops etc.

The only 'new' thing I don't like which has become fashionable lately is the gymnastics groups at the bulkheads & exit rows. The people who have read of the threat of DVT so get up every hour, move to bulkhead or exit, and start doing really stupid looking and annoying excercises which they could as easily do in their seat.

But the seat pitch was greater in those days so adequate room for reclining. Good times.

the days of real life emergency demonstrations

Marigold, I so miss those!! Had them just this summer on a KLM city hopper short haul from UK to Holland, and I so enjoyed them, lol. I like to see if the cabin crew can do it in sync with eachother, moving together at the right time. You know, like Pans People used to do. hehe.

My husband is like you, loves the whole airline/miracle thing. I don't. But i do make the best of it. I am glad I am not like some on this thread who just seethe at the very thought of it, lol. Mind you I can entertain myself for hours people-watching on flights. Situations like you had with bolshy-entitled-lady-behind-you would have kept me entertained for hours. If I was passive aggressive like many on this thread I could have chucked the free pretzels at her, on your behalf of course.

By the way, has your husband changed his attitude any after this thread? Does he maybe see now that you weren't BU?

I was on the A380 lower deck recently - everything so new and clean, the seats seemed roomier, def slightly wider, possibly a bit more leg room. Even aisles seemed wider. Great choice of viewing.

Float, seat kickers husband remained silent. However, on disembarking the aircraft he said I had the right idea to wait took most of the people were off before getting my family off. A compliment, perhaps in thanks for not reclining on him, or an apology for his wife, or just a slightly random compliment! When we all got to UK passport control, him and the ds were there for ages before she caught up with them which I thought was slightly odd. Also I never saw them speak but we were all tired by that point.

red car, there is no way dh would read this far. The first 4 pages would make him feel smug! Jealous of the rl emergency demo!

But the seat pitch was greater in those days so adequate room for reclining. Good times.

what days were those Scone? I am not trying to get your age, honestly, though it sounds like it. I have only flown long haul for slightly more than 20 yrs. Never flew lh as a kid, so don't know what it was like then, only what it's been like in the last 20 odd yrs, and it's the same now as it was on my first lh flight (well, on the airlines I fly). The only place I see real differences in seat pitch is on the budget airlines like Easy Jet & Ryan Air sh flights. And yes they are very cramped. But I still like them as they make cheap weekends away something I can afford now that I never could have afforded 25 yrs ago.

My aunt was cabin crew back in the 50s and 60s on trans-atlantic flights. She is almost 80 now. And I know the photos she shows (the Alan Wicker type ones) wow, the space was amazing, and the passenger were decked out like were going to a wedding. So lovely to see.

Anyone remember smoking sections on flights? Wonder of there were as much whinging about those, given there was no Internet to be PA on back then.

I had to sit in the row in front of one of those on a flight from NYC to Paris as a teen. Oh, the pong!