To think that being Anti Israeli is not the same as being Anti Semitic and to be horrified by the suggestion?!

[SoBloodyOffended]

A pro Palestinian group staged a large protest in my home town and it's currently being discussed on a local Facebook page. All was well until some women came wading in and accused the group of being "Anti Semitic" and then started accusing myself and other people who were speaking in favour of the protest of being "disgusting anti Semites".

I was slightly taken a back at this remark and replied that being opposed to the policies of Israel does not make someone an Anti Semite, but she wasn't having any of it. Apparently being Anti Israel is being Anti Semitic, and we should be ashamed of ourselves for daring to speak out against a group of people who've been "persecuted for centuries".

I'm horribly offended at this statement as anyone who knows me knows that there's not a racist bone in my body, furthermore myself and most of the people who were supporting the protest have been involved in campaigning against the BNP and other racist organisations. Yet apparently because we are appalled and upset about the actions of Israel this makes us anti Semitic!

WTF is she on? I'm fucking fuming!

The question needs to move away from right to exist to the right to do what it is doing.

This.

I've posted this before (appols if it's been posted here - couldn't see it)

worth a read though this-is-not-jewish.tumblr.com/post/34344324495/how-to-criticize-israel-without-being-anti-semitic

can you give an example please?

I'm Jewish and there's no way I'd want to visit or live in Israel. To me it represents apartheid, racism, aggression and occupation.

It's pathetically hypocritical wanting for itself that which has brutally snatched from the indigenous population: freedom, homes, freedom of movement, security, respect, equality, liberation, economic wellbeing.

Documents revealed this week that Israel has deliberately kept palestine on the brink of an economic and humanitarian crisis. No wonder it's cries of right to exist are being overlooked by the world. It IS existing. But it cannot attack palestine then claim self defence in a land it is occupying.

Ok, can I clarify what conditions you would support the existence of Israel then?

The United Nations drew up a plan in 1947 for two separate nations to share the land. Clear enough?

I havent read the full thread but i saw the mention of Hamas charter 1988. I am no supporter of Hamas but they have dropped the bit about destruction of Israel from their charter a while ago. link

I have known about the brutal occupation by Israel for a long time but i have very recently learned about how it treats the Israeli Arabs. It is very much like the South Africa Apartheid. Even the laws that have come into place vey recently are extremely discriminatory against the Israeli Arabs. The right wing Israeli government has not done Israel any justice.

WooWoo,

Israel is a multicultural democracy. All Arabs who are Israeli citizens have the right to vote and there Arab MKs [members of parliament]. Many Israeli Druze and some Israeli Arabs serve in the IDF, although Israeli Arabs are not conscripted. This is not a "totally Jewish State" therefore.

It is also worth noting that the UN partition plan of 1948 allowed for a much smaller Israel which was accepted by the Jewish Zionist leaders. After the creation of Israel it was immediately attacked by its Arab neighbours and the ensuing Israeli military victories resulted in an increase in Israeli territory.

There are few who could claim that Israel is utopia and the increase in anti-Palestinian feeling within Israel is a worrying trend but the reality of Israel is much closer to the idea of a liberal, multi-party democracy than anything Hamas has to offer. In Israel it is a woman's choice whether or not to wear the Hijab if she is Muslim, not so in Gaza.

As for the idea of bringing the region under a secular, non-partisan government, would this be just for Israel or the whole of the Middle East? Would we, in Britain, be so keen on being told that we had to be governed by foreigners and that no member of the government could be Christian, Muslim or of Christian or Muslim origin?

The fate of the Palestinian people since 1948 has been a tragedy but it is a tragedy that the Arab nations must also shoulder some responsibility for.

Ving -
Some say they were attacked by their neighbours, others would say there was a civil war that brought allies into it (Israel didn't exactly face them alone and still gains most of its war weapons - many banned by international treaties - from the West, mainly the US).

Women may choose what they want to wear in Israel, but the attacks against women in Jewish areas for not wearing Orthodox Jewish dress has not only sky rocketed in the last decade, but it is generally ignored and in many places supported by officials.

The problem isn't just a significant rise in anti-Palestinian feelings, but the rise in anti-Arab and anti-African feelings that are being supported by the right wing government that has been voted into power. When you have government officials comparing people to animals and trying to dismiss the violence given against people by comparing it to the genocidal treatment the US has done against others there is a problem.

Another massive problem is that Israel keeps lying and get away with it. These recent attacks were suppose to be because 3 soldiers got kidnapped, Israel has since admitted they weren't kidnapped and that they'd already known that. They then used the kidnapped soldier reason to break the ceasefire - and again it was a lie, lies that have cost thousands of Palestinian people their lives while some Israeli citizens and watching and cheering the bombings from the local hilltops.

The issue is not having Jewish people in government but that the current voted in government of Israel is comprised of groups that are essentially the Israeli versions of the BNP. Not only are they xenophonic of others, they like to try to decide who exactly is Jewish enough to meet their criterias for protection and help and support. Mizrahi Jews (who would mostly be indigenous and in agriculture) and African Jews are systematically mistreated under the current Israeli government regime. African refugees have faced horrific violence and forced injected birth control, both of which have led to deaths.

And if you want Arab governments of the Middle East to shoulder some of the burden, then surely the West that has given Israel illegal weapons and funded the expansion of illegal settlements and the forced removal of indigenous people from their homes should shoulder some of the burden as well. Particularly the UK who by every account messed up the transfer of power (having promised several groups the region for favours) and the UK along with the US who have facilitated the pushing apart of groups both prior to and throughout the last 66 years for their own economic (and in the US's case, religious fervour's) benefit?

The current Israeli government should be challenged and opposed just as much as South African apartheid. Would you like to be told what roads you can use, be given a license plate that means you are barred from local services leading to a far higher numbers of deaths (particularly stillborns and maternal) because you can't access the right road? There is nothing liberal or free about what is going in Israel right except for those who are on top of the power structure. I mean, Israel literally has a Ministry of Propaganda and pays college students to go onto the internet to spread lies to support Israel. Shouldn't that raise a ton of red flags?

Well said spork! I am abdolutely shocked at the enforced birth control. Skin cokour is still very much of an issue in how one gets treated in Israel. Even American support is now diminishing as people are seeing Israeli government for what it is - a pro-apartheid regime.

They are two completely different things in my view.

I am very much against what Israel is doing, but have just come back from Berlin where we paid respects at the Holocaust memorial and were horrified afresh at the atrocities depicted in the Jewish Museum. We spent a lot of time explaining to our daughters the full extent of the horrors of the Nazi regime.

I would be furious if someone accused me of being an anti Semite. Quite simply because I am not.

Incidentally, I am similarly disgusted by the horrors of Syria and Isis etc.. That does not make me anti Muslim either. Like many others, it just makes me anti injustice, anti persecution and anti suffering.

Haven't read the whole thread, but I am anti-zionist, not anti-Jew. There have been so many posts on facebook of Jews protesting against the treatment of the Palestinians, I think the distinction should be clear to us all now.

Unfortunately the Zionists -some of whom are right-wing Christians - like to hide behind the Jews and in a way are promoting the misunderstanding with these accusations of anti-semetism.

Not everyone who criticizes Israel is anti-semitic, of course not.

But there has been an appalling rise in anti-semitism in recent weeks throughout Europe so it seems clear that many people ARE essentially anti-Semitic, that it's always bubbling just below the surface. Seeing placards wishing Jews back to the gas chambers, and saying that Hitler had the right idea is sickening in the extreme

but I am anti-zionist, not anti-Jew

That's something of a contradiction in terms.

"Zionist" simply means someone who supports the right of Israel to exist, and to exist as a Jewish homeland*, after 2000 years of murder, Shoah, pogroms, and discrimination.

So if you're anti-Zionist, you probably are anti-Semitic.

*Although, as Vingtdeux22 so usefully and correctly points out, not all Israelis are Jews.

Do you really want to see the destruction of the only democracy in the ME?

Unfortunately the Zionists -some of whom are right-wing Christians - like to hide behind the Jews and in a way are promoting the misunderstanding with these accusations of anti-semetism

It's sweeping statements like this, lumping all the people you disagree with into one group eg "the Jews" and "the Zionists" that sound so unconsciously anti-Semitic. That's how people talked about "the coloureds" and "the blacks" in South Africa, or "the Jews" in the 1930s.

As I sad upthread, it's possible to discuss this matter of anti-Israeli government/anti-Semitism, but you have to be really careful; about your language use.

I really recommend the blog posted upthread.

How to Criticize Israel without Being Anti-Semitic

Educate yourself!

Yes, that's blog post is excellent. I don't think anyone claims that opposing the Israelis government is anti-semitic (the opposition in Israel does it all the time) but even on MN there have been references to Israeli thirst for Palestinian blood, and the "fact" that Jews control the media.

Clearly there are good and bad ways to express criticism. In a similar way, I may dislike the Pakistani govt, but if I set up a demo against it I would need to be careful not to tar all Pakistanis/Muslims with the same brush, nor or blame Britons of Pakistani origin, and I certainly wouldn't demand that British Muslims all condemn some aspect of Pakistani politics. If I was looking to boycott shops selling goods from Pakistan, for example, I would realize I was treading on thin ice.

I always find antisemitism funny coming from Christians who worship a Jew.

Unless you are making a broad generalization about Jews themselves, you are not being antisemitic. You can disagree with government actions without dragging a religion into it.

Extremists and murders hide behind religion all the time, but you need to judge the individuals not the religion itself. The Koran and Torah both preach peace and love. What they're doing over there is nothing to do with religion, and everyone should be disgusted that they're hiding behind it to justify war.

The fact that someone may be horrified at being called anti-semitic does not exclude the possibility that they are. My grandfather in law was horrified when somebody called him a racist, but his sweeping generalisations and distorted impressions of other cultures and ethnicities were exactly that. The fact that he intended no harm did not obviate the harm felt by other people. Lack of intention does not obviate the potential danger that other listeners of racial comments will think that discrimination or action is ok, because other respectable people agree with them.

I am not for a moment suggesting that anyone on this thread who has professed horror at being thought anti-semitic is in fact anti-semitic. But I think the point I have drawn above is important and not semantic.

Normally, the person speaking from the position of privilege is not the one who gets to call on whether the minority in question finds the remark damaging or discriminatory. A man doesn't get and shouldn't get to call on whether his remarks are chauvanistic to a woman, a straight person or cis gendered person doesn't with a gay or transgendered person and a white person doesn't with a black person.

In many circumstances, Jews or Israelis who claim that criticisms of Israel are anti-semitic are being defensive (and I say this as a Jew). However, it might be helpful to think of where that defensiveness comes from and why it exists. It might also be helpful to remember why it is generally distasteful (to say the very least) to tell another group in society or a minority how they should take your comments. I'm not saying don't criticise Israel, just as I wouldn't say that a man could never criticise a woman or a group of women. But what I am saying is that it really doesn't hurt to approach the subject sensitively and, as far as possible, to put clear blue water between the criticisms you are making and stereotypes or anything which constitutes an attack on someone's personhood.

Zionism is the belief that the state of Israel should exist. As a Jew, I am a zionist. Does this mean that I support every action of the Israeli government, or their current offensive in Gaza? No.

Do you support the two-state solution? Congratulations! You are a zionist. Do you criticise my interpretation of zionism? Well, can you a) accept that a political movement is a broad church and b) accept the fact that it is a general principal of liberal society that we allow the people within a group to define it and not without? Again, drawing on other broad movements and an example posted upthread - do men get to define and characterise feminism?

I feel deeply uncomfortable with your characterisation of "the zionists". "The feminists"? "The gays"? Would you say that? Think about it. There is no such thing as "the zionists". This zionist, the one who writing for you right now, is not deliberately trying to confuse.

I also feel deeply uncomfortable with your terminology when you say "cry anti-semitic". Again, look at some other uses of cry - "cry rape" "cry homophobia" "cry discrimination". It reads as an attempt (either deliberate or deeply insensitive) to belittle what is an extremely sensitive consideration for many Jews.

Some zionists may deliberately blur opposition to the Israeli government with anti-semiticism. Many other zionists find the tone in which "Israel" as a nation and as representative of people beyond that nation is criticised to be troubling, and sometimes describe that criticism as anti-semitic. Sometimes they are justified, and sometimes not but as I said in my previous post you could just, you know, listen to them with a little bit of consideration.

Facebook is full of anti-zionist protests led by Jews.
Ok, so your facebook feed will be different from mine. Most of the posts regarding protests I have seen led by Jews are opposed to the actions of the Israeli government and not zionism in general. I haven't seen any which tell Jews that they should Israel.

These are protests which I support, and I have been on. But I will be damned if you use the fact of Jewish support for such protest as validation of your blanket position regarding the difference between "anti-zionism" and "anti-semiticism" because it is not as simple as that and it sure as hell doesn't feel as simple as that for those of us who have been on the end of the blurred line between the two.

The zionists and their genocidal ways...
I wish I could explain properly what is wrong with this. I wish I could explain properly. why this hurts and why it propogates that defensive position which so many Jews and Israelis take when Israel is criticised, but I just don't have the words at the moment. Let me try. I am a zionist and I do not have any genocidal ways. My mother is a zionist and does not have any genocidal ways. My sisters are zionists and do not have any genocidal ways. My Israeli friends are aghast and devastated at what is happening in Gaza. They want nothing more than to throw Netanyahu of government.

Would you say "The Serbians and the supporters of the Serbian nation-state and their genocidal ways"? Or Rwanda?

I haven't seen any which tell Jews that they should Israel.

Lack of clarity. I haven't seen any in which Jews advocate for the dismantling of the state of Israel and the resettling of its citizens.

Yanbu; you can of course oppose a government's actions without being anti-Semitic, and many well-known critics of Israel, such as Noam Chomsky and Norman Finkelstein, are Jewish.

Some people do sadly seem unable to distinguish between the government of a country and a religion, which is worrying. And there has always been some degree of anti-Semitism present in the world up to and including the present day. This may become particularly apparent when Israel is in the news.

backinthering "So I want Israel to continue to exist in a way that brings fairness to everyone in the region." - I agree.

alAswad - Wikipedia says "While the conjunction of the units anti, semite and ism indicates antisemitism as being directed against all Semitic people, the term was in fact coined in Germany in 1873 as a scientific-sounding term for Judenhass ("Jew-hatred"),[3] and that has been its normal use since then.[4]"

Yruapita - Whilst Israeli Arabs are to some extent be second-class citizens and undoubtedly face some racism, AFAIK they are able to vote, serve as members of the Knesset, work in any profession and travel freely within Israel; this could hardly be said of black people in apartheid South Africa.

Dancing - I read your post with interest. Do you think part of the problem may be that even amongst Jewish people there are different interpretations of zionist?

For me and most of the Jewish people I know, zionist represents an ideology which isn't wholly in line with the principles of Judaism. It's more of a political and nationalistic ideology for me than a religious one.

Whilst I am massively opposed to the brutality of israel towards the regime I do believe israel has a right to exist but not IN PLACE of the palestinians.

Sorry that should say zionism.

Also, to clarify I believe israel has a right to exist but must find a way of treating the palestinians as human being. Eradicating them all is not the way forward towards peace.