To think that being Anti Israeli is not the same as being Anti Semitic and to be horrified by the suggestion?!

[SoBloodyOffended]

A pro Palestinian group staged a large protest in my home town and it's currently being discussed on a local Facebook page. All was well until some women came wading in and accused the group of being "Anti Semitic" and then started accusing myself and other people who were speaking in favour of the protest of being "disgusting anti Semites".

I was slightly taken a back at this remark and replied that being opposed to the policies of Israel does not make someone an Anti Semite, but she wasn't having any of it. Apparently being Anti Israel is being Anti Semitic, and we should be ashamed of ourselves for daring to speak out against a group of people who've been "persecuted for centuries".

I'm horribly offended at this statement as anyone who knows me knows that there's not a racist bone in my body, furthermore myself and most of the people who were supporting the protest have been involved in campaigning against the BNP and other racist organisations. Yet apparently because we are appalled and upset about the actions of Israel this makes us anti Semitic!

WTF is she on? I'm fucking fuming!

I'll come back to my point about Czech Republic - maybe it's not relevant - according to wikipedia, 1.6 million ethnic germans were deported from Czechoslovakia at the end of WW2 - are you equally opposed to the existance of the Czech Republic? If not, why not?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_Germans_from_Czechoslovakia

Wikipedia link

Sorry, it was 2.4 million, not 1.6 million

I am anti Israel but what I mean by this is that I am completely against the actions of the israeli government and idf. I can see how this turn of phrase can be misconstrued as anti semitism. And I have been accused of being anti semitic until I tell people I am Jewish. Then I am accused of being self hating.

Unfortunately lots of people are throwing around the phrase anti semitic to close down arguments relating to the degradation, dehumanisation and subjugation of a whole nation. The israeli government has done this too. This not only flames anti semitism but means that genuine cases of anti semitism and trivialised.

Having been on a March myself I saw no evidence of anti semitism at all. In fact the best speeches in favour of palestine were led by Jewish commentators and rabbis. Jewish people have been amongst the leaders calling for the end of the siege in palestine. I believe in israels right to exist but not in isolation and not if it means palestine has NO right to exist.

Woo, at its foundation, what is your general argument (not specific, general) against the idea that there should be a Jewish homeland of some form in the Middle East?

I don't have one.

Jewish people absolutely have a right to live in that area. I just don't believe they need to be governed by a fully Jewish government and I don't believe they need, or have the right, to expel people from their homes or to treat them like second class citizens.

I don't know enough about the creation of the Czech Republic to comment.

But if there were currently huge numbers of displaced German refugees with no where to go, or who were living under blockades unable to leave a tiny area, or trade outside of that area, or to see their families, then I would absolutely do what I could to support those people.

What if I were to tell you that Israel isn't some 100% Jewish state as claimed?

Then that would prove the point that questioning Israel's right to exist isn't about being racist against Jews.

So, do you support Israel's right to exist? Just to clarify

Dingalong, let's just say you're right - those are perfectly valid reasons to criticise Israel, especially given Israel's declaration that all citizens should have equal rights irrespective of religion and race

I hate racism, and therefore anti-semitism.
But it seems to me very clear that what is happening in Gaza is anti-Palestinism and equally racist.

Palestinian extremists say they want to destroy Israel. That's evil of course, and it's clear they are not succeeding.

Israeli extremists are being careful not to say they want to destroy Palestine. That's evil as well, but they are doing it anyway and have almost succeeded.

Sorry that last bit came out wrong.
They are doing it anyway and that's evil as well.

Monet, in it's current form, no, I don't. Because I cannot support a state that steals from individuals and creates apartheid.

But I fully respect the rights of Jewish people to live in that part of the world.

Sallyingforth is spot on.

Ok, can I clarify what conditions you would support the existence of Israel then? What would practically have to happen?

Monet, do you support the Palestinians right to live in peace, in their own homes, to farm land that they rightfully own? Do you support their right to free travel and trade, and to equal healthcare and education? Do you support their human right not to live in oppression?

Yes, I do

Then how can you honestly be in full support of the existence of a state the disallows those fundamental rights?

It may not be 100% Jewish state, but that doesn't change that the current groups in power, voted in just as Hamas has been (and many have argued that Hama's creation is a resistance backlash to Israel's actions), are pretty much universally in favour of pushing for an apartheid state in Israel not just for Jewish people, but for particular groups of Jewish people on top. Mizrahi Jews (most of whom are as indigenous as Palestinians) and African Jews have been notoriously mistreated, the latter of which have been forced onto birth control by the State of Israel. The current Israeli regime is full of violent xenophobes who speak just as much hate and violence as you could get from any Hamas member, they - and by polls the majority of Israelis - want to further push the current apartheid systems with the roads systems (only people with certain coloured license plates can use certain roads) and limit non-Jewish Israeli citizens voting privileges. Even minority groups can hold racist, genocidal powers (see apartheid South Africa), it doesn't need to be 100%. For every complaint Israel tries to bring against Hamas, Israel has done exponentially greater to both the Palestinians and to their own people.

And the creation of Israel is practically nothing like the creation of the Czech Republic. The UK promised the land to several different groups in return for favours (after having gained it from forcing the end of the Ottoman empire so West Asia could be carved up with it and France) before and during WW2 and then practically washed their hands without any real support in the move towards independence. The main reason it went for the Jewish homeland is because of anti-Semitic Christian right wing influence by the US in the UN trying to bring about the end of days (supported now by right wing Jewish groups who want the same thing with a different end of days). The original Jewish Zionists hadn't even wanted it there, they wanted a safe place and knew how damaging the forced removal of people can be (and there are many Jewish groups to this day who still argue that and against the State of Israel's current existence).

The current state of Israel should be challenged. The question needs to move away from right to exist to the right to do what it is doing. The question should be why Western governments are okay speaking against the violence in some governments and not others and why that is. The US voted against investigated war crimes in Israel (UK abstained), that should be questioned. I can say that the US needs to be challenged and everyone will know I mean those in power, it should be the same for every other country. Having gone from one side of this debate to other over the last decade, the media in the West has a lot to answer for in the misinformation going on around the entire Middle East region (and pretty much any other conflict).

WooWoo, this is where criticism of Israel does come across as anti-semitic - Israel is not some fascist state out to oppress Palestinians. I will criticism many of its actions, and I think its response is massively disproportionate but you're painted a very one sided view that is simply not fair.

Actually, Israel's current parties in power are very right wing and some are fascist in nature and some have outright spoken on the need to get rid of "undesirables" including African Jews, African refugees, and Palestinians. There was a racist rally to get rid of African citizens, immigrants and refugees in Tel Aviv not long back and it was supported by an Israeli government minister who was supported. I don't think many realize just how right wing and bad it has gotten for many there.

To answer your question, I honestly don't know.

Obviously the current Israeli government would have to completely let go of the power they currently have over Gaza and the West Bank. My ideal would be a one state solution, where government was mostly comprised of international, impartial, secular leaders, but with a percentage that equally represented the three main religions in the Middle East.

But the complications of the Palestinian right of return make it too massive for me to get my head around. I support their right to be given back the land that was forcibly and wrongly taken from them. But I would be a hypocrite if I thought that it would be right to take the current families and children away from the homes they currently know as their own in Israel. There would have to be massive international support and massive financial incentives on both sides. I don't hold out much hope.

Well, Woo's point was very broad and sweeping, yet Arab citizens living in Israel enjoy equal civil rights as I understand it. It may not be perfect, yes, there is discrimination, but the situation is not as one sided as painted

WooWoo, this is where criticism of Israel does come across as anti-semitic

It seems to me that this is where Israel's argument always falls apart because it's supporters run out of things to say to justify it, so they go back to playing the anti semitism card.