to wonder how Scotland's decision will affect england?

[LEMmingaround]

Just that really? If they do go their ownway how will it affect england?

Also will it open a can of worms with wales and northern Ireland?

DH says the same, Phaedra. I'm a SAHM now but ours was very hush-hush. There was one very passionate Yes.

I've not had any yet, just a few leaflets (which amusingly get delivered by the same person so came nested inside each other!) - I'd love to see them try

It's not hugely discussed in my current office, but that's cos nobody talks really! My last office was loudly no, and I think the current one is too from what I have gathered.

The talk I was at this morning was pitched at totally the wrong level, it was quite amusing really. That said there was some useful input about currencies, fiscal unions, etc which was interesting.

Did you hear anything new then stats?

Not much - some interesting points about how strict any fiscal union (which would be a requirement of currency union) would have to be to be remotely acceptable. Basically making the point that because of the relative size of Scotland's economy relative to the rest of the UK there would be an asymmetric relationship where rUK could support Scotland, but Scotland couldn't support rUK (if the economies were diverging.) That seems to be part of why it's being opposed. The fiscal controls that were meant to prevent that situation in the Eurozone weren't enough so they would need to be so unbelievably strict that it would be pointless. Plus complete lack of political will.

Lots of chat about the how sterlingisation (aka using the pound without union) wouldn't work, would leave us vulnerable, inability to set our own interest rates etc. They suggested that, as I suspected, the impact on oil is quite strongly considered in current BoE decisions. They were also quite strong on how bad not having a central bank would be for the financial services industry - basically said it was the worst possible option and we'd be better creating our own completely separate currency than doing that. Which I'm very much inclined to agree with tbh and nobody at the talk argued either.

Also points about fiscal transfers i.e. different parts of the UK contribute more or less at different times depending on how their industries are doing. The recent oil price falls apparently meant that Scotland's "contribution" went down by something like £1.2b compared to what was expected but actually our budget went up. There are other times when it's the other way and we support other areas more, but the ability to do that creates a strength and stability.

They said that even in quite "federal" countries, there's normally at least 25% GDP which is communal (my word not theirs!) and that helps to maintain stability.

Hmm, what else...

There was analysis done where the white paper was costed up I'll leave you to guess the outcome of that!

DOn't get me wrong, some of it was a bit rubbish (they mentioned the NHS as a UK institution which sent everyone's eyebrows off the scale!) but I don't think their economic analysis was too far out.

There was analysis done where the white paper was costed up

Don't even tell me Thanks, that does sound quite interesting!

Corey Chelsy, do please enlighten me on what the 'average' Scot thinks, acts and looks like

Sure. If you are unable to use your own eyes and ears to do so, I'm happy to explain further when Alex Salmond explains why he thinks Scots and Norwegians are so similar, apart from oil.

I do however know for a fact that the typical Scot doesn't look like me, since I'm often asked here if I'm from "overseas", have my racial differences pointed out to me quite often, and memorably, last week, if I was "an alien" (although it was by kids).

Well do we believe the Bank of England or John Swinney?

This is in the same league as Salmond's refusal to let anyone see his "legal opinion" on EU membership. You might remember that; it wasn't that he was hiding it because it was unfavourable but because it didn't exist at all.

Currency row dominates campaign www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-28787839

Sure. If you are unable to use your own eyes and ears to do so, I'm happy to explain further when Alex Salmond explains why he thinks Scots and Norwegians are so similar, apart from oil

Yes, please do. I struggle to get my head round this 'average' Scot. Nobody in my family is ginger. Does that make us atypical?

As a not pure Scot (am mixed race) who has spent a bit of time in Scandinavia, I cant help noticing that the Scots tend to be darker haired than your typical Scandinavian, and have a rather different mindset. I'm not saying all Scandinavians are blond, just that they don't especially resemble many Scots in most ways. Pedalling some notion that they are extremely similar because Scandinavian countries are seem as "desirable" is a bit of a smoking gun. Its ironic that you appear to be getting het up about me pointing out that they are not that similar, as opposed to Alex Salmond saying that they are.

if you have to go down the rather strange line of saying one country is like, ir should be like, another, Ireland and the Irish have far more in common with t
Scotland and the Scots in many ways. But that's no longer fashionable to say, since the economic crash, so we have to listen to the "aspire to Norway because we could be just like them because we're so similar" twaddle constantly. And it is constant.

So please dont pretend to be mock offended when someone simply states the truth, and try to make out its in some way racist to do so, when being at the sane time happy to listen to Alex Salmons buying into some Nordic supremacy myth.

So please dont pretend to be mock offended when someone simply states the truth, and try to make out its in some way racist to do so, when being at the sane time happy to listen to Alex Salmons buying into some Nordic supremacy myth

I have never and will never support Alex Salmond or the SNP but I don't agree with you suggesting he makes favourable comparisons between Scotland and Norway because of some belief in 'Aryan supremacy.' Whether correctly or not, he's talking about oil, wealth and smaller populations in countries colder than England. Where on earth does Aryan superiority come into it?

I'm fully aware that there's nothing 'Nordic' about me. Like a massive percentage of Glasgow's population, I'm from an Irish Catholic background. This part of people's heritage is strongly felt, for better or worse (clearly we still have the Celtic-Rangers issue). We don't aspire to be what we're not.

I'm guessing that further north people might feel connected to Scandinavia because of proximity and certain similarities in industry. To say there's a stream of white, Northern European ethnic 'superiority' which is typical of Scottish people is very insulting.

Yours faithfully,
the dark haired granddaughter of Sligo tinkers

Where on earth does Aryan superiority come into it?

No, Alex Salmond does it all the time, and because people think Norway and Scandinavia in general is something to aspire to, many people just accept this excuse for favouring the Nordic countries for comparing Scotland to, over other similarly sized small countries which are not Nordic. And yes theres some oil in Scottish waters, but oil is hardly the only industry in Scotland and to base so much of the argument on that is farcical.

A quick search on google reveals so many links to statements about Scotland being like Scandinavia (never Iceland though!) that it might be reasonable to assume that he is a tad obsessed by it.

Since fervent nationalism (and some of the SNP stuff is fervent in the extreme) is associated with the National Socialists of the Nazi party and similar organisations, I find the constant pushing of Scotland to become more like parts of Scandinavia very distasteful. Different if its was an entirely or even predominately Nordic country geographically, historically and culturally, but its not, and trying to pretend its something that its not to fulfil someone's political ambitions is distasteful.

Well do we believe the Bank of England or John Swinney?

I think we believe both. I believe BoE has not entered into discussions/negotiations re a currency union.

I believe that scotGov has had discussions with BofE regarding various technicalities.

Since fervent nationalism (and some of the SNP stuff is fervent in the extreme) is associated with the National Socialists of the Nazi party and similar organisations

Ah. The SNPs are Nazis argument. Very Facebook.

I find the comparison of people supporting self determination for their country by democratic means to Nazis to be be distasteful. Go figure.

I find the comparison of people supporting self determination for their country by democratic means to Nazis to be be distasteful. Go figure.

Think there's a growing 'national identity' argument from some on both sides. I've been called a traitor, not a true scot etc. I've also noticed a trend in some people towards British flag waving and insulting people's Scottish identity. I find that whole aspect bizarre - I don't really think about my national identity to any great extent. I find it very disappointing that some people are voting on that basis. A FB friend of mine has shared quite a lot of William Wallace stuff, and there are loads of comments such as 'vote yes for Wallace'. If you genuinely believe yes is the right path, I think you're wrong but that's your decision. However I cannot respect anyone who is going to vote based on battles hundreds of years ago.

Salmond at theBook Festival talked about "vigorous Scottish identity" and illustrated it with his father's opinion that Winston Churchill should have been hanged. Not sure that helps with moving the debate onto ideas and policy and away from nationalism.

Aye we are all Nazis FFS!

I don't think anyone here said you were all nazis. People say it on FB but then they say all sorts about No voters there as well. I wish the nationalism on both sides could be taken out of the debate, I don't think it helps either side.

Itsallgoingtobefine Ah. The SNPs are Nazis argument. Very Facebook

I had a feeling that you would find the distinction too subtle.

But why the constant pedalling of the Norse/Scandinavian links? At the expense of any other countries which are similar in size and have recently gained independence, but which are not Norse? Oil isn't the only comparator. But Salmond doesn't like Ireland (not any more), Iceland, Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia as much as Norway and Sweden. And he certainly doesn't like Belgium, because some of it wants to split in two.

I absolutely abhor any nationalism. I really don't care what nationality people are. And I certainly don't want a Scottish identity shoved down my throat, with a whiff of Norse in a fake attempt to make it seem less nationalistic.

OOAOML What was Salmond Senior's rationale for that than?

But why the constant pedalling of the Norse/Scandinavian links? At the expense of any other countries which are similar in size and have recently gained independence, but which are not Norse? Oil isn't the only comparator. But Salmond doesn't like Ireland (not any more), Iceland, Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia as much as Norway and Sweden. And he certainly doesn't like Belgium, because some of it wants to split in two.

Because unlike some of the other countries in your list Norway does have oil, and Norway does have a desirable standard of living, and Norway does have a strong welfare state.

Why on earth would he not choose one of the most successful countries in the list to emulate? It wouldn't be very smart tactics for him to say that we could be like some average country...

There is a difference between "blood and soil" nationalism and civic nationalism. You may find this wiki entry helpful
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Types_of_nationalism

So it isn't just to give the "ethnically different from the English" message?

Do you think he is aiming for Norwegian tax rates?

No

Nothi