to wonder how Scotland's decision will affect england?

[LEMmingaround]

Just that really? If they do go their ownway how will it affect england?

Also will it open a can of worms with wales and northern Ireland?

Yep, one. Tacticals, many of them, IMO.

I do think that the reason that UKIP did "well" in Scotland is because of the degree of coverage that they got on the BBC, newspapers etc.

If the Greens, which had iirc, a higher level of support in Scotland than UKIP, had had an equivalent degree of exposure, then they might have got that last Scottish MEP seat.

I'm not sure what the sex abuse scandals have to do with independence at all.

Tony Blair was Scottish. Many small nations were involved in those two wars, including a lot of the Scandinavian countries we're supposed to aspire to. Beibg small and independent does not guarantee staying out of wars. The UK has a better chance of that, IMO. It can, to some extent, say no. Scotland would have to ask how high it has to jump.

Trident. Urgh. Well, even assuming we get rid of it q282 of the White Paper makes it very clear that Scotland would still host foreign nuclear weapons, and being held on foreign vessels, we'd have no right to inspect them. I'd rather a known and properly maintained fleet than a complete unknown. Independence doesn't even guarantee its removal, as the rUK would be under no obligation to move it until they could do so safely.

We all get an equal vote, and to me that's what matters.

Prettybird,

Once again, I said that those who vote yes on the basis of Salmond's position on the currency are not fair minded. I set out why in quite some detail.

I have no reason to believe your father isn't fair minded. I'm sure a fair minded person could support Scottish independence as long as their position isn't based on anti-English prejudice. However, Salmond's approach is designed to appeal to prejudice.

BTW, my parents in law stayed in SA. They deserve the utmost respect for their anti-apartheid activities.

Yep, one. Tacticals, many of them, IMO

Tactical? Really and how was this supposed to affect any of the mainstream parties?

What was a tactical vote for a UKIP MEP candidate going to achieve? Other than losing George Lyon?

Sorry I don't buy that for one single minute.

Scotland would not have to ask how high to jump. She is forced to jump with rUK at the moment whether she wants to or not.

Tony Blair is probably still Scottish if he was Scottish.

Scotland's votes have had no bearing on who governs in Westminster for all of my life (and I'm an old fart). That's not an equal vote.

Sex abuse has been as good as institutionalised within Westminster over the last few decades if current reporting is to be believed. Even if an individual isn't an abuser, they've known about it or worse covered up for the abusers. At the highest level previous PMs and the security services have been implicated in the cover ups. It's rotten to the core. The independence slant is that this is a chance for the people of Scotland to disassociate from the whole disgusting establishment.

I do think that the reason that UKIP did "well" in Scotland is because of the degree of coverage that they got on the BBC, newspapers etc

Bollocks. Utter bollocks, although Eck did try peddling that excuse as well.

I agree UKIP got a vast amount of media coverage, the vast majority of which was unfavourable including virtually unanimous agreement from the other parties on its general nastiness.

Well, I fundamentally disagree with you toadinthehole as I don't see Salmond's position as anti-English. Whether I agree with him or not, he repeatedly says that he is sticking with his belief in Currency Union as the best approach not just for Scotland but for the whole of the UK. Given what he has said, he can't propose a Plan B as that (by his own argument) would be "anti-English" as it wouldn't be the best thing for the rUK economy.

Amongst the Yes voters I know, not a single one of them are "anti-English". In fact, some of them are English!

Saying that Eck and by extension Yes voters are anti-English is not only laughably wrong, it's clutches pearls then faints highly offensive .

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/10823301/SNP-student-leader-in-racism-row-for-calling-David-Cameron-an-English-t.html

Did Eck or Nicola make any comment on this?

"Roisin McLaren, president of Edinburgh University’s SNP branch, claims her comments were 'open to misinterpretation'.

The SNP is embroiled in a racism row after one of its student leaders publicly called David Cameron an “English t*”.

Roisin McLaren, president of Edinburgh University’s SNP branch, said that she had ignored the Prime Minister’s pleas to save the Union because it was “an English t* telling us all what to do.”

She also used an interview with the Guardian to pour scorn on Mr Cameron’s passionate defence of the UK in a speech at the Olympic velodrome in February during which he urged the English to make clear they want the Scots to stay.

Arguing that Mr Cameron is a “toff Tory politician, who nobody here likes or voted for”, the 19-year-old dismissed his plea by concluding: “F* off! If he If he’s had any sense, he would have kept his gob shut.”

Miss McLaren, who has campaigned alongside Nicola Sturgeon and Alex Salmond, yesterday said that her comments were “open to misinterpretation” and apologised for any offence caused."

Pheadra - you must watch different TV to me, as the Greens certainly didn't get anywhere near the same coverage as UKIP on the TV I watched.

UKIP was defined as a UK major party in the run up to the elections and while for Scotland only broadcasting this was scaled back, not all our media is only Scotland. So therefore the level of coverage was indeed disproportionately high.

prettybird nice try but you have completely misinterpreted my post.

I made no mention of the amount of coverage the Greens got.

I agreed UKIP got a lot of mainly very bad publicity, including Salmond, going to some length to point out just how nasty they are, but yet enough Scottish voters preferred them at the expense of a very experienced and very able LibDem MEP.

PrettyBird really the idea that UKIP only did well because the BBC told the innocent wee Scottish electorate about them is laughable.

In fact if it were true then if anything it makes the Scottish electorate embracing them at all even worse. Media coverage of UKIP was universally damning of them. Heaven help us if the BBC ever tell us anything about the BNP.

Scottish voters who voted for UKIP did so for the same reason any voter votes for any party-they liked what that party is offering.

And you have misinterpreted my post, because I did make specific mention of the amount of or lack of coverage that the Greens got: "If the Greens, which had iirc, a higher level of support in Scotland than UKIP, had had an equivalent degree of exposure, then they might have got that last Scottish MEP seat."

Please stop trying to make implausible excuses for the 140,534 Scottish voters who found UKIP appealing.

Yes that's a small number but it was over 10% of those who voted.

...or less than 3% of the people of Scotland.

Not relevant. If you're using that argument only 389,000 people voted for the SNP in the European elections.

More Scottish voters who bothered turning out were attracted to UKIP than to the Liberal Democrats. Maybe you don't think that's a bad thing ; I do.

And of course much of the population is under 18 but if you want to look at it that way then only 7% of the population of Scotland voted for the SNP at the European elections.

Failing to see the relevance when the Scottish independence vote is the discussion. Voters who will be residents of Scotland aged 16 and over.

Yawn. Night, night

The relevance is simply because one poster commented on the fact that the Yes campaign is keen to peddle the idea that we're so much nicer and fairer in Scotland.

But since we're mentioning lack of relevance you claimed this embarrassing outcome was due to tactical voting.

I fail to see how there could have been tactical voting for UKIP in Scotland given the whole of Scotland is one region for the purposes of European elections and votes for the entire region of Scotland were allocated proportionately to the party.

The tactic to avoid getting a UKIP MEP was to not vote for them. Quite simple really.

I have not said supporting independence or, for that matter, Alex Salmond means you are anti-English. Perhaps those who continue to allege that I have done so could explain why they think I have.

BTW, glad people liked the turkey analogy. Made it up myself :-)

Of course the region in England where UKIP did poorly was..... London - I think in terms of percentage of the vote it was similar to Scotland.

It's been a while since I've been on this thread, but I see currency is still one of the points being discussed, and my phone decided to play up a while back! I found an article which seems to explain my view quite well, that Westminster are concentrating on threatening to take the Pound away, rather both sides cooperating to figure out how best to work together after the Yes vote. This parargraph in particular:

"By laying down the gauntlet of rejecting any currency union with Scotland even before any referendum vote has taken place, and promising to “punish” the Scottish people if they vote for independence, Osborne overlooked an inconvenient truth. His entire argument rests on the presumption that no workable currency union is plausibly negotiable between Scotland and the rUK in the aftermath of a vote for independence. He simply assumes nothing can or would be negotiated in terms of the character or functioning of a currency union that would work to the benefit of both the rUK and Scotland."

Full article: NewStatesman article

This is from someone who wouldn't really bother which currency we used, however. From the day the UK joined the EU, I always thought the Euro would be a good idea. I know it isn't as strong as the Pound, but I used to have to commute being the UK and Europe a lot and converting currency all the time was inconvenient. My reasons for voting Yes are based on more than just this, and there are many more important reasons (for me).

I think this will be my last post in this thread, need to take a break from MN for a bit, got quite a lot going on in the next few weeks at least. Here's hoping for a more informative TV debate before the referendum, and happy campaigning/voting everyone.

I know you probably won't see this numanoid so more for other people but for me, it's not that I care what currency we use. Pound, euro, Scottish pound... Not that fussed, no major attachments! It's the lack of clarity or planning, the lack of certainty, the lack of honesty. I totally appreciate your point about the way UK politicians are behaving. It's rubbish. But at this point it would be hard for them to back down from their position.

Therefore, for me, salmond and Co need to start telling us what their next best option is and how they are going to make that work in reality. Currency union may be their preferred option but it looks awfully like it's not going to be on the table. So what are they going to do and how. All of the other options have major issues -they can probably be worked around but I want to know how. The time for selling us a pipe dream and arguing that the UK politicians are wrong has kind of passed -now tell us how you are going to arrange something that is fundamental to the economy of our country.