to wonder how Scotland's decision will affect england?

[LEMmingaround]

Just that really? If they do go their ownway how will it affect england?

Also will it open a can of worms with wales and northern Ireland?

there is also the point that if an independent Scotland did somehow manage to get currency union, and then had to put up with rUK having an influence on their economy, taxes and interest rates, they would then spend the next 300 years moaning about the English having an influence.

Interesting analysis Toad.

This referendum is far more interesting to watch than a GE or local elections.

Toadinthehole : this discussion has generally been very reasonable but I think the implication that those people that choose to vote Yes are not "fair minded" is not in itself a fair one (to repeat the word).

Salmond's position on the currency issue is, to my mind, designed to appeal to anti-English prejudice. So I don't think a person who votes Yes on the basis of it is fair minded.

Salmond makes these arguments because he knows they win votes. I find that fact very depressing.

being delivered a Christmas turkey that shat its own cranberry sauce

stores phrase for another day and misses point of post

Yes that made me laugh - and somehow fits Osborne perfectly

If Scotland wants to be independent, then the costs of becoming independent are worth paying. I'm sure they are aware that there will be costs. Wanksock says that Scotland can afford it. Fair enough.

The problem though is that it looks as if the majority of Scotland doesn't want it. So many will not think it worth paying. Some people on Facebook state independence at any price which is an attitude that scares the hell out of me. Whatever way the vote goes on the day, it looks as if it will be very close. It doesn't feel like a good base for moving forward. There have been various mentions of reconciliation (think there is a church service planned a few days after the vote) but whatever happens, there are going to be a lot of unhappy people.

The people of England, NI and Wales would be richer per capita if Scotland became independent. However, the UK as a whole would be culturally poorer, and the headaches it would cause re defence would be horrible!

England has treated Scotland really poorly over the years, up until the last 70 years, but now Scotland is actually better off remaining in the Union - I think they should stay with us, as England has at least acknowledged and apologised for atrocities such as prima nocta.

I have to disagree with you strongly then toadinthehole - I know plenty of intelligent and fair minded people who are going to vote Yes. I also know intelligent and fair minded people who are going to vote No. People are voting Yes or No for all sorts of different reasons: some fair minded, some selfish - some in hope, some in fear. I don't judge them - as some (but not all) on this thread seem to do.

My Dad, for one, is a highly intelligent, retired (medical) Doctor who is voting Yes, not because he thinks he will be better off but because he believes it is the right thing to do for the society he wishes to live in. He has very strong moral values: we left South Africa because of apartheid and he came to start a new life in Scotland c.50 years ago. He has always taken a keen interest in politics and thinks deeply about values, ethics and fairness - indeed, that was the foundation of the set of values I was brought up with. That was why he was that unusual (for the time) beast: a Labour voting doctor.

I thought there was't any evidence that prima nocta ever happened - outside Hollywood films

outside Hollywood films that should be.

I think it is a load of rubbish that Scotland would be fairer. What would make it fairer? Scottish people aren't any better or worse than anyone else, and the only evidence someone has managed to give me is the free fees.

Scotland could be fairer if it were independent, whether or not it would is another matter. What is important though is that whatever Scotland became would be based on how Scots voted, not the SE of England.

Scottish people are generally accepted as being more left wing. There is disagreement about how big this difference actually is, but it does exist.
If you equate this with being fairer then you can see how an independent Scotland would be a fairer place. However

, sorry, obviously a lot of people won't view left-wing as being fairer. all the English UKIP voters for example

Why do rUK want Scotland to stay?

Daewoo in South Korea were awarded a contract in Feb 2012 worth £452m for four new fuel tankers by the Royal Navy. RN don't just award contracts within the current UK.

Attheendof sorry, obviously a lot of people won't view left-wing as being fairer. all the English UKIP voters for example

Bit more than UKIP voters I should think. I'm pretty sure many citizens of the former Eastern European socialist regimes didn't find left wing rule particularly fair either!

No British firms put in a final bid to build the tankers. SK is also a healthy distance away and does not come with the political baggage that an independent Scotland would.

I agree that 'fairer' is bandied about as if independent Scotland would be a niceness paradise. It doesn't seem to mean anything except 'no Tories'.

Why do rUK want Scotland to stay?
Put simply, if it ain't broke don't fix it.

It is utterly broken though. The whole of the current UK is totally in the shit.

I see Iraq, Syria and Gaza as broken, so obviously we're glorious compared to them.

In what ways do you think the UK is broken? More importantly, how will independence solve the problems? It's either on this thread or the one in Site Stuff, but a MNer voting yes has estimated that there will be 10 years of disruption to regular programming. Someone else has argued for 25 years. Even 10 years is a huge amount of time, enough to sacrifice a generation. You can talk about growing numbers of food banks and child poverty all you like, but plunging the country into 10 years of uncertainty will only highlight and exacerbate the problems IMO.

Good questions to ask Santana are for me, moving out of Scotland would be the solution, so I don't waste a proportion of my life on this stuff.

I really don't think independence will happen (yet) but theoretically, for the sake of argument, assuming it does, will the No voters simply accept the fact they will be living in a country they voted against being created happily?

Or will there be mass migration? Or worse, constant agitation for a rejoining of the UK and subsequent constant uncertainty? Will Scots continue to be obsessed by the issue of their nationhood and ideology and rhetoric, as opposed to business and wealth creation?

At this stage the next 10 or 25 years of iScotland or UK as it stands cannot be predicted. I worry deeply when I see UKIP gaining popularity or Boris the Buffoon talking about being a leader of the Tory party.

We have WMD 30 miles from Glasgow. Oil exploration and a proposed terminal on the west coast has been knocked back by Westminster as it would interfere with the nuclear subs.

We've had 2 illegal wars, one because Iraq ignored 2 UN resolutions (Israel have ignored 65). Scotland have had the Poll Tax (a fucking year before rUK), bedroom tax and countless policies the majority of Scottish MPs didn't vote for. The unelected House of Lords have stripped away powers that the Scottish Government had on renewables.

We are governed by an institution that has been mired by the expenses scandal. This resulted in six politicians being jailed and many resignations. The sex abuse scandal and the cover up by those in power over decades is now beginning to become public. How far will that go?

Why would Scotland, having the chance to escape, want to be part of that?

I won't to into the money saved by not having to cough up a share of £100 billion (plus) in the Trident replacement or paying a share of not one but two high speed railways that come nowhere near Scotland.

Oil money be there or will dry up whether Scotland gets independence or not. The oil companies will exploit the oil as long as it is there (the thinking is there is more oil to be retrieved than has been drilled to date in the North Sea and WoS). The technology advances means more oil is retrievable than ever previously predicted. Scotland can keep the revenues from her sectors, or share them in a +/- 10/90 split.

Oh and the small matter or getting the government we voted for.

Apologies for the slight derailment OP.

I agree that 'fairer' is bandied about as if independent Scotland would be a niceness paradise. It doesn't seem to mean anything except 'no Tories.

Eck was banging on about making Scotland a UKIP free zone at the last European elections and was encouraging voters to vote SNP to make sure this happened (as opposed presumably to voting for any party that wasn't UKIP)

Scotland did of course get one UKIP MP (and lost the excellent George Lyon). This was embarrassing for Eck since in his Utopia of nationalist but nice it shouldn't have happened.

The %age of votes ranged from around 7% to over 13%.Edinburgh had the lowest percentage of UKIP voters whereas there were surprisingly high percentages in rural areas which really can't have been affected by immigration.

I worry deeply when I see UKIP gaining popularity

Scottish voters voted in sufficient numbers at the last European elections to return one UKIP MEP.