To ask DP to forgive me for DS's birth?

[CulturalBear]

Have posted a few times about moderately crap DS birth.

Nutshell - waters broke, on drip 40 hours later, needed forceps/episiotomy, later abandoned on recovery ward (with naked baby) by hospital staff and DP for 4-5hours. DS largely fine, I was largely fine.

A year and a bit on, and it still bothers me.

Someone IRL recently told me the usual 'all that matters' is that DS is fine and I need to let it go - and asked what I needed to do that.

It occurred to me around DS's first birthday that I need DP to forgive me. He has never given me any praise or credit around the birth or year since - never said well done or that he's proud of me, or that I'm a good mum or even thank you for the things I do - all normal things a dad might say to his partner.

He is basically Spock when it comes to feelings - he logics the shit out of them so they don't trouble him.

But I believe that him not saying these things implies he feels ashamed of me. I think that if I could get him to express forgiveness for screwing up or letting him/DS down, then I might be able to let go this over-riding sense of failure I've had since.

For the record, I 100% do not judge the way that anyone else gives birth - it's bloody hard work and requires a huge amount of effort however it happens - I just wish I, personally, had done better. I have never been given a reason for needing the interventions other than 'he was a bit stuck'.

Ideally DS would tell me he forgives me - but I'm not sure I could wait 18+ years!

Would I be unreasonable to ask DP to forgive me? If not, how do I go about it?

It sounds like you and your partner both work FT, but you do all night wakings and virtually all nappy changes? Is that so?

OP, I think the thing to remember here is that giving birth isn't like studying for an exam which you ultimately pass or fail. It really isn't as simplistic as that.

I think giving birth is one of the most out of our control experiences many of us will ever go through. I don't think it helps that there is a degree to which we are led to believe that if we only do X Y or Z! Or we are well enough informed, that we can influence the process in ways we really can't

And then there is no preparation for the neglect or hurtful words or actions of HCPs

I didn't really come to terms with my first birth until aftere I had my second. For some women, they might never get that far.

He does have redeeming features - but not in the emotional support category.

I did all night wakings and still do because I was breastfeeding til 11 months. But since I've been back at work (about 5 months ago) we let DS cosleep if needed,tho he is currently flirting with sleeping through.
I do 95% of nappies and dressing etc but DP is doing more now, and does 95% of cooking and 60% of basic cleaning.

Unfortunately you can't make people react or feel the way you want them to, or the way you feel. However you can tell them how sad/alone/unsupported their emotional detachment makes you feel.

You had experts around you making recommendations, it really doesn't make sense to describe them as decisions you made.

culturalbear this was me nearly three years ago now . I kept it togther for two years after DS2 was born , i coped , i worked , i looked after everyone and then slowly , so slowly i didnt even realise things went very bad . I had a breakdown , i hit the bottom and couldnt see any way foward. My friend insisted i go to see my GP , i told her my life was a bit shit ,but that i was fine , i would manage etc , told her i didnt need AD's because i wouldnt be able to work , look after my family properly while taking them , that they would change me , the usual shit people spout about AD's . She was absolutely fantastic, put me completely straight about the AD's and convinced me to take them ( which i did for a year ) and told me my company had a inhouse conselling service which was competely confidential , i had six weeks of counselling which was brilliant ( ok the first two weeks were hell !) . Imagine you need to change lightbulbs , but dont get around to doing it for a while , you get so used to the murk , that when you eventually do change them it almost seems too bright ? thats what its like to come out of the other side .

Please go and see your GP and be honest , (yours might not have the finely tuned bullshit detector mine had) . Oh and none of it was your fault in any way , shape or form . The reason it takes three years to become a midwife is 'shit happens' as your DH so kindly put it , and it happens a lot more frequently than most people realise .

Have you discussed pnd or PTSD yet? Do you know anything about it? Discounting it is normal. Not believing it's you is normal. Not feeling bad every day is normal. Being up and down about it all is normal. Recounting certain events in a loop is normal. Thinking you are ok but crying next is normal. Normal for both.

Op I'm quite concerned. I'll do a bit of projecting now. I knew a lovely lady who threw herself from a window because of pnd. It's insidious. It permeates. It distorts reality. All reality including relationships, like you're describing with dh. It's like invisible molasses or treacle. It is something you can overcome. It is also something deadly. It is an illness. A treatable one. Please. Please see someone.

Love hugs and strength xxxx

Everyone wants a good birth experience, of course.

I planned to have my first at home with a pool and had no reason why that wasn't going to happen until my waters broke almost two weeks early with meconium staining. So we had to go to hospital after all, where they wanted to induce me, which we didn't want at all. After dh suggested that we might go home (no other risk factors and absolutely nothing was happening labour wise) they did a scan and found out that ds was in a transverse oblique lie. At this point a consultant put his head around the door and said 'c-section, now'. Half an hour later we had ds!

So all a bit shocking. dh was very proud of his intervention, he played the strong protective role and I'd hate to think what would have happened if they had induced me (none of the midwives or doctors had picked up the lie, they all thought his head was his bum).

All too few months later and I was pregnant with dd. I still really wanted the 'birthing experience' and opted for a VBAC. Waters broke early again, this time no staining. On day three I ended up agreeing to being induced instead of having another c-section (goodness knows why, but I really wanted to labour). It all went wrong after that. I coped fine with the pain until I couldn't, then gas and air did nothing, the midwife was useless (really unengaged) the strapping made me feel trapped, I couldn't walk around (and I'd done enough research to know that was bad) and I pretty much shut down. dh felt very upset. I was in pain and he couldn't do anything, and I wasn't turning to him so he felt very redundant. Then they examined me and after 6 hours of what I thought was horrendous pain nothing had happened, not a single cm!. I really fell apart. When he asked me if I wanted an epidural/c-section apparently I said no, and then when the midwife asked a few minutes later I said yes. That made him very upset and angry (he told me a long time afterward - I couldn't/can't actually remember).

Anyway it wasn't long before I had the c-section and there dd was. It was midnight by then and he went home. We didn't really talk about it for ages. I was upset that he was distant and he was mad that I'd not turned to him. It was all very damaging, and we didn't really sort it out between us for several unhappy years.

Birth can be a scary, painful, disempowering experience. Looking back I know that I made some mistakes, but they were perfectly understandable ones. dh and I didn't talk enough before the birth about what might go wrong. My uterous turned out to be good at holding babies but not at getting them out. But most of all we had a not good enough midwife.

I don't blame myself for my uterous' failure. Just like I don't blame myself for being shortsighted. It is just one of those things, part of my genetic make up. I got plenty of good genetic gifts too. My children are teens now and I look at them and think how incredible it is that they grew inside of me. They both enjoy their birth stories btw and don't blame me for anything, as there is nothing to blame me for. They also don't thank me. I think it would be slightly odd if they did.

nooka nope, we will never be thanked:) Dd told me yesterday that she wished she had a different mother because I refused to let her eat as much candy as she wanted. She however is very proud of my c section scar:)

The thanking thing has gone a bit chinese whispers lol - it'd be nice if DP thanked my for my ongoing efforts working my arse off for him and DS (and his other DS).

Either him or DS could (theoretically) forgive me for messing up.

DP is the only one (really) who could give me some form of credit or praise for actually getting through it. It's a bit much to ask him to praise me when, ultimately, DS was delivered (ie I didn't actually give birth). But it would be nice if he could acknowledge that I got through it all, remained calm in the face of panic, didn't make a huge fuss etc etc.

Going to try and organise a doctor's appointment for this week - although I'm not sure this will be possible. Fingers crossed.

You didn't give birth as you put it, but you gave your son life which is a whole lot more important.

Lots of birth trauma red flags in your last post there.

The main one being that you feel that you didn't give birth as there was medical intervention.

It genuinely doesn't matter a damn if a million people give you credit for giving birth, YOU have to give yourself credit.

It took me well over two years before I could say that I gave birth to DD but fuck it, I totally did. Good for me and good for you!!!

I agree there are lots of flags in your last post.

Mainly to do with messing up.

It will sound glib for someone online to simply say this to you but I promise you, you did not mess up.

Yes, birth feels like the most enormous thing at the time, and if anything doesn't go to plan, or shocks/upsets it, it can take quite a while to come to terms with it.

But in the wider scheme of things, it is actually irrelevant how your child came into this world. It is irrelevant whether their mother gave birth vaginally or had a cs.

I don't mean to suggest it is irrelevant to how a mother feels, but it is irrelevant to the child, to their development, to how they grow up, and most importantly, to who you are as their parent.

I say this as someone who had a similarly long and messy birth, ending in an emcs, and with a baby who I didn't see for 11 hours as she went straight (and very unexpectedly) to NICU. For quite a while, the fact that I didn't see her as a brand new newborn really played on my mind; but as time has passed that has faded, and I have so many millions more moments to focus on than that brief moment at her birth - which, to be frank, she doesn't remember. It means nothing to my DD that her mother didn't see her for half a day. It means nothing to her as regards who I am and how I am as her parent.

I'm saying this because it is so, so clearly weighing on your mind and it sounds as if it is affecting other things in your life too. At which stage it moves beyond regrets and sadness, and becomes something which is genuinely affecting you, so well done for deciding to make that doctor's appointment. There are people out there who can help you come to terms with not having the birth you expected or wanted. Good luck.

Actually you did give birth to your DS. He was born and to do that you must have given birth to him. By whatever means and however it makes you feel that is a fact.

Please stop saying you messed up. I can't imagine how somebody can 'mess up' a birth. You don't control what happens. Nobody really does to be honest. Both you and the medical staff are dealing with something that is outside of your control - it is something you can only react to. It is not something you can actually mess up unless, for example, you refuse to give consent for some sort of vital medical intervention and you didn't. The only messing up was the way the hospital treated you after the birth and that wasn't your fault.

I think if you accept that you didn't mess up (you didn't) then you won't need praise either. I think the need for praise comes from the need for acknowledgement that you did OK but I don't think your partner telling you that will make any difference. You have to believe it.

Just as a matter of interest have you told your DP how you feel since you started this thread? Not pushing you to do it but just interested. It might be that the only way to resolve this is to tell him what you have told us.

I know lots of other people have said this already, but you did not "mess up" or "fail" or however else you want to put it. There is no "perfect" birth that we get marked against.

I had to have an EMCS after 30 plus hours of labour whilst on the syntocin drip. I never got past 1 to 2 cm dilated. Unbeknown to me and every health care professional that examined or dealt with me, my DS was back to back, with his neck flexed in a brow presentation. Nothing I could have done would have got his head through my pelvis - just not possible. All my contractions had done was jam his head into my pelvis. The experienced midwife who examined me after 30 plus hours finally worked out his positioning and realised we needed an EMCS.

I did not fail at giving birth. I gave birth to him - the fact that he had to come out of a c section incision is just a fact, in the same way that some people had to have episiotomies, or had 3rd degree tears or post partum haemorrhages. Every birth is equally valid and no "better" or "worse" than others.

I don't think that the words of a stranger will change the way you feel about this, but I would strongly urge you to talk to your GP about this and get some counselling. You don't deserve to feel so bad about this.

Do you really want to be with someone who doesn't support you emotionally for the rest of your life? Do you really want to be with someone who wouldn't support your children emotionally either (because that is the next logical step)? The thing about people who don't support you emotionally is that they also drain energy from you as well.

Going back to what you are coping with at the moment, you say he hardly changes any nappies, does hardly any night-waking and by the sounds of it isn't doing his fair share of time off when your DS is ill. In what ways is he a good father? Because being a good father means doing the shit as well as the good.

I've not spoken to him about this since starting this thread. There hasn't been a good time (for various reasons, we get very little time together, especially when DS takes longer to get to sleep).

He's not keen to discuss it - always accuses me of banging on about it and 'only talking about babies' (which isn't true). It may be he's shutting me down as a defence mechanism?

I did manage to have a chat with him about vulnerability - asked him why he never lets anyone behind his wall, and trying to make the point that if you shut people out, you miss out on being properly happy, too. Adter a while of very gentle, non-accusatory talk, (which included him getting very defensive as usual before he calmed down) this resulted in him asking what I wanted, and I said that I wanted to feel loved - ie I needed (volunteered) affection, and nice words. He said he wants me to 'just chill out' and 'not be miserable all the time'.

He is capable of offering emotional support. He was great when we first got together - he even let me in at times. But we've lost it along the way.

He is starting to pull his weight more now - he knows he 'owes' me the next few sick days as he couldn't do the last batch due to a critical business project landed on him last minute, that's just been finished.

He sounds incredibly hard work. All this managing his feelings and talking to him in certain ways etc. It doesn't sound like he's offering you the same courtesy and thought. That is what I mean about draining your energy. You are bending over backwards to be super conscious of the pressures, boundaries and issues he has when in fact at this moment in time you are the one that needs support and he should be doing that for you.

Just as well you didn't have a critical project too isn't it...

Well, it sounds like you made some progress. I think you are right he is probably shutting down as a defence mechanism. Your comment about DP being a bit like Spock when it comes to emotions makes me think he might be on the autistic spectrum. Is that what you were thinking too? People on the spectrum are sometimes said to be a bit like Spock so I wondered about your choice of words. I don't want to make excuses from him but he is how he is and if he is on the spectrum he will be finding it difficult to deal with all these different emotions too. It might be that you will always spell it out for him to understand the emotional stuff. He might have been great at the beginning of your relationship because he was making a huge effort but that probably isn't sustainable for him in the long term.

Of course he might just be a bit of an arse and only you know if that is the case. On the other hand, if he is on the spectrum you will have to decide if it is something you can live with because he isn't going to change easily, if at all.

I am sorry to say this, but you sounds fundamentally unsuited.

Defence mechanism my fat arse. He is not adjusting to that fact that, as you support the baby, he needs to support you. This will only became more obvious as the baby turns into a demanding, emotionally messy toddler/child and you will be its punchbag. Who will be there for you?

For you to ask for nice words and for him to basically reply "stop hassling me woman"....

I'm sorry, you are worth more.

Sorry, my last post was not worded as diplomatically as it should have been.

Do go to the GP. You self-flagellation about the birth does point to depression (I experienced this myself). I hope he can see that what you are asking for is not unreasonable and beyond his capacity to give you. Maybe he is scared of your vulnerability.

Sooo just an update. DP was very supportive last night when he realised I wasn't a happy bunny. He encouraged me to take some time off for myself and use my massage voucher, made me dinner, made some helpful suggestions re work etc as well.

And I've just booked a GP appointment for this evening. As soon as I booked it I started wibbling. It's with the same GP I saw a while back who prescribed iron for mild anaemia. I really really struggle with iron, so taking three tablets a day was never viable.

One of my physical problems is a very sore tongue - which I suspect is an indicator of a much-worsening anaemia due to crappy coil. I'm worried he's going to shout at me for not taking the tablets, which will then block any opportunity to go 'and by the way, I'm struggling'.

Already thinking I should cancel

How did it go OP?

I am seeing a pattern here where you seem to need external approval and fear what other people think of you.

Blimey, a GP should never shout at you! Tell him the reasons why you struggle to take the tablets for iron, and ask him if there are any alternatives. And maybe start by talking about the fact your struggling rather than the anaemia - if he asks about the anaemia first then deflect it and say that you are more concerned about other things.