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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

About gay vicars.

396 replies

VivaLeBeaver · 12/07/2014 23:34

Now I admit I'm not religious so I don't really get the argument of breaking church law, etc.

But I think its crazy that in this day and age a vicar can be refused a licence to practice by the local bishop because he's gay.

I thought Christians were meant to be tolerant, compassionate, etc.

Its even more crazy when he wouldn't be working directly for the diocese but for the local hospital.

bbc news story

OP posts:
niminypiminy · 14/07/2014 14:30

headinhands what we have in John 8.2-12 is not a doctrinal statement about whether stoning is right or wrong. Jesus says nothing about it.

What we have is a story about how he stopped one stoning. I have to say that I think Jesus's strategy is far more effective than yours -- in all of my experience of being in situations of conflict I have never found that saying 'you are all wrong so you should stop now' is very effective.

(Unless, of course, you are a policeman, in which case you are enforcing the law and they are breaking it, which isn't what's going on in this case, or unless you are threatening them, which puts you in the same moral position as them -- punishing someone by force for something you don't agree with.)

What Jesus does is to challenge them -- by asking what right are they judging and punishing her. And he's very effective. He stops it right there, and they go away and leave her alone.

One thing we do know is that Jesus doesn't think we it's right to have sex with whomever we wish. He condemns adultery in the frankest terms, and, I have to say, I'm with him there. Even if you only had the Relationships board of MN to go by, it would be unarguable that adultery causes pain and suffering, breaks relationships and hurts children.

But he doesn't say, yeah, go on, throw rocks at her. He says, which of you are so good that you have the right to judge her, and stops it. Our principles are what we live by, what we actually do, not just what we say. On the only occasion we know about that he witnessed a threatened stoning, Jesus stopped it. On the available evidence, then, we know definitely that Jesus thought that adultery is wrong, and that the best strategy is not a violent punishment but repentance and forgiveness. On the basis of what he did, we can say that he opposed stoning.

I don't see, in that case, how your position is superior to his.

livelablove · 14/07/2014 14:32

We may not throw stones at one another today, but we punish in other ways. We decide who is to blame for things and we don't forgive them. Jesus didn't say let he who has not committed as bad a sin as adultery punish this woman in a more humane way. He said do not judge others, forgive them.

Icimoi · 14/07/2014 14:38

God has never changed. He only adapts stuff to appease people. He cannot throw his own ideology out.

So God still thinks we are sinners if we wear two textiles, he's just keeping a bit quiet about it? Does that exclude us from the Pearly Gates?

settingsitting · 14/07/2014 14:42

He made rules for reasons. Some of the reasons are still quite obvious today, others not so obvious.
But people could not and would not keep to most of them. So he then abandoned some of them. Good.
Then the second and final set of rules came in. No one is perfect. But we should aim for our best.

headinhands · 14/07/2014 14:43

He said do not judge others

He also said he wasn't changing any of the laws.

headinhands · 14/07/2014 14:44

Jesus says nothing about it

Which speaks volumes really doesn't it.

settingsitting · 14/07/2014 14:46

I dont get your last two posts.

niminypiminy · 14/07/2014 14:56

"He also said he wasn't changing any of the laws."

Well, no he didn't. In fact, Jesus's attitude to the Mosaic law is complex. So while on the one hand he says in Matthew 5.18 'For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not one letter, not one stroke of a letter, will pass from the law until all is accomplished', on other occasions, for instance in Matthew 12, he breaks the law in significant ways -- healing on the Sabbath, for example. And he goes on to say in Matthew 22 the law can be summarised in only two commandments “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind” and “You shall love your neighbour as yourself”, which suggests that it is the underpinning principles of the law that are important, not the details of the full Mosaic code.

niminypiminy · 14/07/2014 14:58

"Which speaks volumes really doesn't it." headinhands I have to say you have a certain genius for quoting out of context and for ignoring anything you don't like!

settingsitting · 14/07/2014 15:00

“You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind” and “You shall love your neighbour as yourself”,

I was pretty sure I was missing a part of what I wrote this morning upthread.
It is these two parts together which incorporate all of the 10 commandments.

settingsitting · 14/07/2014 15:04

if god hadn't invented disease....

God didnt invent disease.
There wasnt suppose to be any nastiness of any kind on earth whatsoever.

But the fallen angel[the devil] came along and tainted everything.

TheCunkOfPhilomena · 14/07/2014 17:25

Who created the fallen angel?

headinhands · 14/07/2014 18:00

So the filarlil eye worm. The one that burrows into the eye and then eats it's way out. Satan made that? Lions who have to kill to survive? So what about yucky stuff that science has use for good like penicillin. Does satan get upset? I thought god made all living things? Do you have scriptures for this or do you have to work backwards and create what you think happened as you go along? How come all living things are genetically linked in a way that should a clear progression and complexity from bacteria onwards? Wouldn't satan's handiwork be a separate tree as it were?

Bardette · 14/07/2014 18:27

Satan does not create he corrupts.

alemci · 14/07/2014 18:35

god created lucifer who became fallen angel.

Matthew 5 v17-19 talk about Jesus coming to fulfill the law.

settingsitting · 14/07/2014 21:01

Who created the fallen angel?

God created angels. But I think that they are not perfect as far as I know.
tbh, my knowledge of this is low at best. I need to find out more.

settingsitting · 14/07/2014 21:16

Oh crumbs. About 6 more questions from head in hands.

Blu · 14/07/2014 21:29

meanwhile , back on earth...

"Why are you specifically worried about gay vicars? Are you equally concerned about the rights of a gay person to be a rabbi? A guru? An Imam?" Neither the Jewish nor Muslim religions are Established . The CoE and it's doings really matters because it has a unique voice in our democratic (sic) affairs. Watch what happens in Friday when our right to decide on our own deaths is debated. For example.

"he cannot hold a role where he is supposed to represent the church and its teachings." aka the paid job. See, I'm OK with people privately believing things, having faith and taking part in religions. We cannot and never should police belief or faith. But once that belie starts to impact on and overlap with our other laws, like Equal pay, sex discrimination act etc, then it straddles a fault line. If the CoE wish to withdraw from our Equality legislation then they should withdraw from their established position in the heart of our constitution. IMO.

"The bible says that there is no need for an intermediary.
When we pray, we pray direct to God." - all fine, there's the answer, - given the above! They can become an amateur (no paid priests and vicars - gay, female or whatever) , disestablished religion and avoid the massive hypocrisy that they currently have to shoe horn themselves in and out of.

settingsitting · 14/07/2014 21:42

The bible says that there is no need for an intermediary.
When we pray, we pray direct to God

I meant that in relation to prayer. I am not sure if you are extending what I said to other areas?

settingsitting · 14/07/2014 21:45

So the filarlil eye worm. The one that burrows into the eye and then eats it's way out

Answer is as Bardette says. Satan doesnt create. He corrupts.
[you do know these answers as you have been told before]

settingsitting · 14/07/2014 21:46

Actually that answers all parts of that post.

Bardette · 14/07/2014 21:50

If the CoE wish to withdraw from our Equality legislation then they should withdraw from their established position in the heart of our constitution.
I agree.

Blu · 14/07/2014 21:54

SettingSitting: well, yes. If prayer is at the hart of faith and a relationship with God, is it truly necessary to have paid, employed, be-pensioned, employees? In job descriptions which do not meet any Equalities legislation?

Would faith not be served better by a simple mutually supportive de-instutionalised leadership who have no need of payment and employment rights?

livelablove · 14/07/2014 22:56

A

edamsavestheday · 14/07/2014 23:02

The idea that Christians have a direct relationship with God and don't need any intermediaries in the shape of priests or saints is a protestant idea. The Roman Catholic church has traditionally seen things very differently - this argument is at the core of the breach between Rome and protestant churches such as the Lutheran churches. And, to some extent, the CofE, although that has always been a messy compromise between different approaches, including Anglo-Catholics and protestants alike.

Personally I'm all in favour of messy compromise, it's a defining characteristic of Britishness IMO.

And I don't want the CofE to disestablish, I value having a denomination that has a duty to all of us if we call on it and that is hobbled by its public duty - stops the CofE becoming a smug or extreme members' club.