About gay vicars.

[VivaLeBeaver]

Now I admit I'm not religious so I don't really get the argument of breaking church law, etc.

But I think its crazy that in this day and age a vicar can be refused a licence to practice by the local bishop because he's gay.

I thought Christians were meant to be tolerant, compassionate, etc.

Its even more crazy when he wouldn't be working directly for the diocese but for the local hospital.

bbc news story

[Bardette]

The Bible says that a man should have sex with another man, and it teaches that all forms of sexual immorality are wrong, in one passage in the New Testament homosexual acts are included in this.

[Bardette]

A man should not lie with another man. Ha, epic typo.
I was going to add that the Bible does not talk about loving same sex relationships though (as they were not recognised at the time) so some people believe the references are to male prostitution.

[HollyGuacamolly]

Erm the bible says that two men having sex is wrong, in the same vein as it says unmarried straight people having sex is wrong.

[Deverethemuzzler]

This is one of the reasons I left the church.

The bible doesn't mention gay marriage at all does it?

As for good old Leviticus, whenever you bring that up in an argument for why Christians/JWs etc shouldn't do something they do every day, they tell you that they don't live by the OT anymore.

Except when it comes to stuff like this apparently

I would love to see anti gay Christians follow the laws as set down by Leviticus. It would keep them so busy what with the taking soiled bed linen to be blessed etc, they wouldn't have any time left to stick their nose into other people's love lives.

[Icimoi]

They are happy for gay people to hold office as far as I am aware. They are unhappy for people who are openly in relationships that the church regards as sinful to hold office.

An absurd and indefensible stance. In effect they are saying that it is fine for straight people to have loving, committed, sexually active relationships and to hold office, but if you are gay and want to serve the church you are not allowed to commit yourself to the person you love. Yes, I know they justify that on the basis that they regard homosexuality as sinful, but that takes me back to my first point: surely if you believe in a god you believe that he made gay people. Can you seriously believe in and respect a god that makes people gay but tells them it is sinful to manifest homosexuality?

It is also absolutely no justification to refer to what the Bible says. Do we really still have to point out that the Bible also tells people that they shouldn't wear two different types of fabric?

[settingsitting]

It is not a matter of people being tolerant.
It is a matter of what God says.

[settingsitting]

There is oodles and oodles of stuff in the bible about two people of the same sex not getting together sexually.

[Icimoi]

No-one knows what God says, if indeed there is such a being. All we have is words written centuries ago by fallible and inconsistent human beings.

Frankly, I don't believe in any god. However, when I did, I could only make sense of any of it on the basis that he is a humane and logical being, and does not go in for cruel and irrational conduct such as condemning a section of his creation to a miserable life because of sexual preferences which he gave to them.

[dawndonnaagain]

It is a matter of what God says.
Absolute nonsense. The bible, well the books etc were written over seventy years after the death of Jesus and like every other major religious work is open to interpretation.

[Deverethemuzzler]

What God says?

Come off it.

Did he tell you personally that gay marriage is wrong?

[settingsitting]

www.thelutheran.org/article/article.cfm?article_id=5243

[Anniegetyourgun]

There's some stuff in there about who it is legitimate to make into a slave, and how slaves should be treated. Don't hear too much of the C of E piping up in favour of human trafficking these days though. Which is just as well really.

There's also something in the New Testament about women covering their heads in church, I think? Fortunately last time I was in one, a few months ago, they didn't throw me out for absence of hat.

Apparently the thing about executing witches was a deliberate mistranslation.

Interpretation, yes, and picking and choosing.

Hmm, I feel a re-posting of the famous Dear Dr Laura letter is due.

[settingsitting]

We are now in new testament times, not old testament times.

[Anniegetyourgun]

I don't know about you, but I'm in the 21st century.

[settingsitting]

The new testament part is still going.

[settingsitting]

Many religions (not just the church) regard homosexual acts as sinful. The church is generally clear that it condemns the sin (i.e. the homosexual act) not the sinner.

This.
The 2 things are seperate. We all sin.
God loves us, but sometimes not the things that we do.

[headinhands]

Why is homosexuality wrong in the eyes of god.

Do you eat shellfish?

[Anniegetyourgun]

If we're going New Testament, that article from The Lutheran says Jesus never even mentioned homosexuality, in terms of sinning or otherwise. St Paul did, but he was a bit of a miserably old anti-everything as a general rule - I rather think the hat business was him (but have suggested elsewhere that it was taken out of context). The article also casts doubt on whether it was homosexuality per se or male prostitution that was frowned upon. As for sodomy, it does depend how you define it. A quick Wiki mentions at least three distinct shades of meaning, but the legal one of anal rape sounds like a perfectly sound one for calling a sin. Sticking it where it is thoroughly welcome, on the other hand, may be unwise at times but sinful? Makes no sense.

[jarofpickles]

A lot of this comes down to whether you believe being gay is an innate trait. I don't. I don't think sexuality/attraction is that simple. I think it comes from childhood experience. That said, i don't believe it is a 'choice' that people can turn on and off. But I do believe people's sexuality can change. 'Being gay' as a defining feature of someone is a very new concept, and this makes applying biblical passages really difficult. I don't think the sexual relations mentioned/condemned by Paul were within the context of loving monogamous relationships, i believe he was talking more about casual sex/hedonistic practices. So I'm not sure about church leaders who are in monogamous homosexual relationships, but (as a Christian) I think we should worry about other issues a lot more.

[niminypiminy]

That BBC link is very good (here it is again again, because it shows that there is debate among Christians about how we interpret the Bible.

There are many, many gay clergy in the Church of England, many of them living with their partners in civil partnerships. There are many, many gay lay people in the Church of England, some single, some partnered, some married. There are many, many straight people in the Church of England who want the Church to change.

At present the Church of England demands of gay clergy that they live celibately within a civil partnership (if partnered). This is obviously ridiculous -- it obviously puts everyone in a 'don't ask, don't tell' situation. But that's where we are at present.

There are lots of people who want this to change. There are lots of people who want gay clergy to be able to marry their partner, and who want the church to conduct marriages of gay people. There are people who don't want either of these things, and people who are somewhere in the middle. The tide of opinion is growing towards liberalisation. But it's a slow process, maddeningly, frustratingly slow.

What this case has done is forced the hand of the bishops it's deliberately provocative. Under the current rules, the bishop had to withdraw the licence. It may be that the publicity all this has generated will force a change in the rules. I hope so. It will probably make the conservatives even more determined never to give in. I hope the matter can be resolved, without making a martyr that would be awful for all sorts of reasons.

[Minnieisthedevilmouse]

I'm Christian.

Never understood what that has to do with what I do with my nether regions. I think those bits are what man added in at some point. Just seem out of odds with rest of it really.

[alemci]

Annie recently my dd did a fund raiser to support a charity, possibly stop the traffic and last year I attended a concert raising funds to prevent it.

[alemci]

minnie it's to with your body being a temple and self control as a Christian

[Minnieisthedevilmouse]

Niminy, shockings the word. Look what happened at women in church recently. People still standing up saying that shouldn't happen!