About gay vicars.

[VivaLeBeaver]

Now I admit I'm not religious so I don't really get the argument of breaking church law, etc.

But I think its crazy that in this day and age a vicar can be refused a licence to practice by the local bishop because he's gay.

I thought Christians were meant to be tolerant, compassionate, etc.

Its even more crazy when he wouldn't be working directly for the diocese but for the local hospital.

bbc news story

[Puzzledandpissedoff]

I take your point, writtenguarantee but must confess I haven't a clue what the data (if any) shows about CofE members' views. I suppose some would argue that they get flack more by being the "main church" in the UK, established or not - though that would be a bit ironic when less than 2% go

It's hard not to compare their constant changes according to current fashion with the stricter, somewhat more confident approach some others take. Maybe, too, that's one reason they've left all churches alone over discrimination laws - the CofE might be persuaded to comply, but I can imagine others might have more of a problem with that

[writtenguarantee]

That's just me, though - I appreciate that others might consider my views blasphemy!!

I actually think that there's an argument that C of E members would also prefer this.

The C of E is under a lot more pressure than other churches to conform to modern social norms because it is part of the state apparatus. As such, it is more conciliatory and flexible than other churches. Great for secular people like me (if we are to have an established church, having a flexible one is good), but it isn't great for conservative members of the C of E.

[Puzzledandpissedoff]

"got" not "go" ... sorry

[Puzzledandpissedoff]

But, because it is part of the state, I want a say

In all fairness I think you've go a point there. Personally I'd much rather we didn't have an established church - not because I don't want folk to comment on it but simply because I dislike the concept and would prefer the whole thing to be purely a matter of personal conscience instead

That's just me, though - I appreciate that others might consider my views blasphemy!!

[writtenguarantee]

Faiths have their own moral code you might not agree with it but it is allowed. As for the bakers in Ireland, they have to act within what the law says but they are entitled to their views. Religious organisations are exempt whatever the religion, the Anglican Church seems to be at the end of a great deal more criticism than other faiths, probably because they are not extreme and more consisiliatory. If it's not your religion why feel the need to coment.

I wouldn't feel the need to comment if the anglican church wasn't the state church. As such, it in some sense represents us all, members and not. They have special privileges with this status, so they should also have special responsibilities. One of them should be don't discriminate (which horribly fail at).

This is a problem for C of E members and non-members alike. As a non-member, I want the C of E out of state business. But, because it is part of the state, I want a say. Members of the C of E essentially want it to be the case that it remains part of the state (with it's special privileges) but non-members don't have any say in it. Well, that's just not on. If you don't want non-members telling you what to do, break away from the state.

[whatsthatcomingoverthehill]

One of the things with homosexuality is there really is very little about it in the Bible, and what there is is certainly debatable. (How you are with your money on the other hand....funny how that isn't talked about half so much yet there is far more about it).

But it is an important point about the culture things were written in. You can't read and understand what Paul is saying about sex without considering that he was in a time of Roman and Greek temple cults which were basically a form of prostitution. People talk about the 'plain reading' of the Bible but to my mind that is actually doing it a disservice. To really understand what it is saying you must consider the culture and situation at the time.

[Icimoi]

All this nonsense comes from stuff written by men hundreds of years ago, men who lived in a society that was deeply intolerant to gay people. There is no evidence whatsoever that it is the word of any god. If there is a god who is a loving and all-powerful god, it makes no sense whatsoever that he would create gay people unless he intended them to stand at least as good a chance as everyone else to live a loving and productive life. And, if they so wish, that must include becoming a vicar.

[Tron123]

Faiths have their own moral code you might not agree with it but it is allowed. As for the bakers in Ireland, they have to act within what the law says but they are entitled to their views. Religious organisations are exempt whatever the religion, the Anglican Church seems to be at the end of a great deal more criticism than other faiths, probably because they are not extreme and more consisiliatory. If it's not your religion why feel the need to coment.

[PourMyselfACupOfAmbition]

Rogue full stop! Sorry!

[PourMyselfACupOfAmbition]

My church is an inclusive church and I understand most cofe are these days.

We're 'high' church though. I think most people mistake us for being strict when we are really not.

[whatsthatcomingoverthehill]

I'm 'inside' Christianity and have no problem with homosexual relationships. As evidenced by this thread there are a multitude of views from Christians.

[writtenguarantee]

The fact is that almost always it's the people outside the religion who do not want to join it who object to what goes on inside the religion. Not sure why they think they have a right to interfere

you could say that about the irish baker too. we have non discrimination rules in this country. Why are god's houses exempt?

With regards to this specific case, the church in question is the C of E, the state church. Which makes it tripley deplorable. That church represents me, and more importantly it represents that vicar.

[Tron123]

The fact is that almost always it's the people outside the religion who do not want to join it who object to what goes on inside the religion. Not sure why they think they have a right to interfere

[HellBoundNothingFound]

TooHasty...the word of God is written by man. There is no evidence of a God, and if he did say anything it's been interpreted by man.

We read and interpret everything, religion is no exception to this. Man wrote it, man follows it.

[writtenguarantee]

There are specific exemptions in the legislation for religious organisations. If the state were to prevent religions from following their beliefs that would potentially be a breach of Article 9 of the European Convention on Human Rights (the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion). That right is not absolute and can be restricted by law but I doubt the courts would uphold a law designed to force a religious body to promote someone who was openly engaging in a practise that goes against the beliefs of the body, in this case gay marriage.

the problem is that our church is the state church. So, in effect, the state itself is discriminating.

[Puzzledandpissedoff]

Just a small thought for those who refer to "evidence" ... without any comment on whether I accept this or not

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen

Hebrews 11:1 King James Version

[Tron123]

Surely give the European human rights legislation the church has the right. The Church of England along with many other religions has a view on a number of issues that are different to non believers, I think that the rights of those who have religious beliefs should also be upheld. Society consists of people who have a whole host of views that is a free society

[TooHasty]

'Picking and choosing what they want to fit with their warped conscious. Makes me shudder'

It is nothing to do with 'their' consciences (I assume that is what you mean by 'conscious') warped or otherwise, it is to do with the word of God.The word of God doesn't bow to popular culture , or current social norms.

[HellBoundNothingFound]

Religious folk who believe in love and forgiveness but only on their faiths terms offend me deeply. Picking and choosing what they want to fit with their warped conscious. Makes me shudder

[CocobearSqueeze]

Why are you specifically worried about gay vicars? Are you equally concerned about the rights of a gay person to be a rabbi? A guru? An Imam?

This!!
If the religion is against people of the same sex having intercourse then how can you have a vicar who does exactly that? To me the whole thing becomes a huge joke! Wouldn't you need to rewrite the bible?

Why can't gay people start churches where they can be vicars rather than trying to change existing churches?

[JaneJane63]

Is homophobia even a word or was it made up to make people who do not agree with homosexuality guilty ?

Also why is it only the Christian faith being attacked by homosexuals wanting to invade the church and force everyone to agree with them. I have no problem with gays but I don't think vicars should be preaching the word of God as it goes completely against what the bible says and like another poster pointed out God's plan was for man and woman to marry and have children , not same sex couples.

I don't know why people are offended when Christians stand up for their faith .

[JaneJane63]

I haven't registered just to reply to this thread . In fact i have been a member quite a while, also the reason i found this thread was because of a google search as i was reading the new story line in coronation street with Sean and the vicar who is gay and this came up in the google search .

[TooHasty]

I don't think the church expects everyone, even vicars, to lead sinfree lives.That is kind of the whole point of christianity.

[TiggyD]

JaneJane63 - Firstly I believe all sin is sin and no sin is bigger than another sin in the eyes of God - A fit person parking in a disabled space is as naughty as genocide? Hmmm. Interesting.

...God , i am... - You forgot to capitalise the 'I', therefore you are as big a sinner as Hitler. Thread ends.

[TiggyD]

I don't care wether it was Jesus or Justin Bieber who thinks it,... - Is there some kind of mnemonic for remembering which one is which?

I've always thought being a vicar is kind of a gay/camp thing anyway. The dressing up, the performance, listening to women without trying to get a shag out of it, the singing songs/choirs, etc.