to think that Rainbows and Brownies should be scrapped...

[Bardette]

...and all kids can just go to Beavers and Cubs.
In our area there is a long waiting list for Beavers. My son would like to join a colony but we have been told there it will be at least a term until a space will be available.
Girls can go to Rainbows or Beavers, but boys can only go to Beavers. As girls take up half the spaces in Beavers and all the spaces in Rainbows that means three times the number of places available to girls in local clubs.
Surely it would make more sense and be fairer to have two Beaver colonies?

And re the girls not being allowed to attend so it's ok for some boys not to go because there aren't enough places but not ok if a small minority of girls can't go because their parents wouldn't let them.To be honest said parents should be taught that life involves mixed sexes, pandering to separation of sexes does nobody any favours.

Err Seven girls are being allowed to do whatever they fancy,boys aren't.

Why do people keep harping on about wanting scouts to be boys only like it used to be? They became mixed sex when I was a teenager, I'm now nearly 38 years old so it was over 2 decades ago!

My eldest DD joined cubs and is still on scouts now as an explorer, she's 16. She's also now a going leader at the scout section. Youngest DD joined cubs and is now in scouts.

Neither of them were ever interested in brownies, it just wasn't their bag. Yet the benefits they have had from the scout movement are immeasurable. If scouts didn't allow girls they would not have joined brownies, they both looked into it and they weren't interested so they would have simply missed out altogether.

So fuck em then retro right? If allowing them to mix goes against their parents beliefs then tough. Their parents aren't going to change their beliefs because their child wants to go to an after school club. They simply won't be able to go. But that's OK isn't it.

And that is just looking in the UK, globally you are shutting down one of the very few organisations that puts girls and women first. I suppose for some people that might be a large part of the appeal though, mightn't it.

There are girls who are required for religious and cultural reasons to have a female only space. If that does not exist, they do not get to take part.

I don't know how clearer to be, I'm sorry.

As everyone has pointed out, scouting was forced to accept female members as they could not recruit enough boys, and more importantly, enough male leaders. They didn't magically agree to accept girls in some sort of grandiose sweep towards equality. They were forced to, to survive.

Girl Guiding is entirely, completely, 100% different.
Many of the leaders are involved because they believe that an all female space to try some of these activities (the same activities as the boys) is valuable.

I have no particular issue as to whether scouting accepts girls or not, tbh. I understand their rationale for doing so (and as I said, opened a group where none existed. There still wouldn't be one there today if two women had not bothered) and I understand the necessity. As an all boy's organization, numbers were dwindling, and a huge change and re-branding was necessary.

Girl Guiding would lose leaders and members if it became co-ed. There is in impetus to become co-ed. It would be detrimental to the values of the organization, and would result in a loss of membership. This loss would not be made up by hordes of boy-children and their daddies rushing to join, unlike the mummies and girl children that moved to scouting.

It will not happen.
It should not happen.

I can see no positive reason for suggesting such a move. At all.

In other news, one of my dad's was in two rainbow units (we moved). The first was brilliant. The second was shite. It's all about the volunteers, folks. But you can't criticize unless you are prepared to put out yourself.

Scuse typos, DD is a young leader.

That's not the only reason why Girlguiding is girl only.

The members consistently say in the regular Girlguiding surveys that they want to keep it girl only.

www.girlguiding.org.uk/about_us/what_makes_guiding_special.aspx

www.girlguiding.org.uk/pdf/Girlsshoutout_first-report.pdf

See page 20-21

"Seventy per cent of five- to seven-year-olds, 73 per
cent of seven- to ten-year-olds, 81 per cent of ten- to
15-year-olds and 96 per cent of 16- to 25-year-olds
like to spend time together without any boys being
there (see graph, opposite)."

Lol at dads. Funny autocorrect.

sovery our top footballer pretended to be a boy so that she could play, and got kicked out when they found out:

here

"To be honest said parents should be taught that life involves mixed sexes, pandering to separation of sexes does nobody any favours".

I agree in principle, but it is going to take generations to teach certain groups that they must allow their daughters/sisters/wives to attend anything where men or boys are present.

There are young girls and teenage girls who would not be allowed to join any club or activity where boys/men were present.

Well sorry then Dino that is the same argument re golf clubs.

Both are wrong.

My post was supposed to come after retropear but it is a busy thread!

What, retropear?! Where do golf clubs come into it?

There's a clear gender gap and Girlguiding aims to target that, giving girls and young women the opportunity to try things, learn things and speak out in the way that they often don't get in the rest of society.

And gentle mans clubs.

So my boys wouldn't be welcome simply because they have different gentitals.

Read the thread Mad I said earlier that I would be happy to volunteer. And it seems necessary to point out that I don't actually want the Girl Guides to shut down, I was using hyperbole to stimulate a discussion.

Somewhat off-topic, but what do those of you who volunteer (running sessions, rather than behind-the-scenes) do with your other DC, assuming one of them is at the session with you? I've always intended to volunteer with the Guiding/Scouting movement at some point (since neither DC is quite old enough yet for any of them, that point is not now!), but wondering how you'd organise the DC.

I volunteer for various things already but they're either later in the evening meetings when DH is home, in my own time (ha!) behind-the-scenes stuff, or fit in with the DC being with me or at school/nursery. There's a gap of 2 1/2 years between DD and DS. DH doesn't usually get home from work till 9-10pm but will be home for 7 if necessary (and infrequently, not sure he'd manage once a week on the same day) - can't do earlier than that as it would mean taking time off work. I couldn't afford £30pw babysitting... Not unless I worked FT, then I wouldn't be home in time anyway.

Do you have relatives who look after the children, are your partners home in time, do you pay for childcare or did you simply wait till both DC were old enough to be doing activities after school? Or do you take a younger sibling along too (is that allowed?)? When I did Brownies, the leaders either had both DC at Brownies or had parents close by. There were two Brownie packs in our village, with long waiting lists; one cubs pack with spaces (despite the fact that both my DBs were members) - I guess that's why Scouting admitted girls. There wasn't a huge imbalance of girls:boys in the primary school!

girls can do all that with boys,my dd manages it.

For those who don't want to become a leader of the club their DC go to: I've been a Scout leader and the Scout leader who never led a section their DC were in was a rare beast indeed. Our local Scout group has threatened to close every 4-6 years for as long as I can remember because a parent or group of parents will agree to run it so their DSs have it to go to then stop a few years after they leave. If a reasonable proportion of parents agreed to do this then there would be no waiting lists.

But you can always go to the local leaders and say this: they will almost certainly know of a unit or section you can lead at on a different night to your local beaver colony.

When I was a young leader in guides the leader had volunteered to lead when her DD was in Rainbows and at that time the Guide section was having a leader crisis so she was asked to do Guides instead.

And yes there's admin roles, there's running the Scout shop roles, there's helping set up roles, you don't have to be a section leader to help out.

You have stimulated a discussion where vocal posters think that female only space worldwide should be banned.

Nice one.

Retro. Scouting chose to go mixed sex because they were not getting enough recruits. Guides chose to stay girls only because,among other reasons, they had enough recruits and didn't need to.

Why is this so hard to understand?

Yes, absolutely. And as a youth-led organization, we have a remit to listen to the youth members.

It is interesting though. The research obviously shows that in most situations, girls and boys are treated differently and as a result, have different learned behaviours (billions, from looking at gender and students, through work places, whatever, any gender based research...)
The suggestion is that in an all-female space, behaviour isn't modified by these unwritten codes, and (hopefully) can be relearned, so that members aren't as affected by gendered expectations outside of the single sex environment.

I often wonder what is motivating girls towards the answers about guiding remaining single sex... Do they feel this expectation in co-ed environments? Are they tired of being put down, their opinions minimized? Or what? Do they all want to bake cookies and do crafts and knit? (Tongue in cheek)

Or have we just successfully brainwashed them that guiding is for girls?

I'm taking my girls to a co-ed jamboree next month. I will be watching with interest as to how their behaviour and attitudes are changed in a co-ed environment. Hopefully not at all, as we have engendered enough confidence in their own abilities...

(Psst, anyone else going?)

Bardette And it seems necessary to point out that I don't actually want the Girl Guides to shut down, I was using hyperbole to stimulate a discussion.

Well, you have certainly managed that!

HeyNonny - I have a 9 year old boy (cubs) and a 10 year old girl (guides). They both come along to the Rainbows and Guides sessions I run. My daughter helps out, my son sits in the kitchen with his ds.

Retropear it might be interesting for you to read the Guides survey on sexism, there is a news article about it here

It might help you understand why girls in the Guide movement want to keep it single sex.

" girls can do all that with boys,my dd manages it.,

Well done you. And her. But in this country and worldwide there are many girls who wouldn't be able to. And, frankly, I would be happy for my sons to be slightly inconvenienced to confer a huge benefit on girls worldwide.